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Comment by pavlov | Hacker News Reader

I respect the mastery of the Doom creators, but for me personally, it marked the point where computer games went downhill. Shooting at blobs through the eyes of an anonymous virtual character just never worked for me.

I remember playing Wolfenstein 3D for about an hour, then getting bored with the repetitiveness and lack of identification with the protagonist, and never touching the game again.

When Doom came out, I tried it for 10 minutes, concluded it's W3D with better graphics and aliens instead of Nazis, and never touched it again.

Of course I don't mind that others enjoyed the game. Unfortunately these games became so popular that everything turned to first-person 3D and killed most of the genres I had enjoyed, and so I eventually stopped playing completely.

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>Unfortunately these games became so popular that everything turned to first-person 3D and killed most of the genres I had enjoyed

Its not like they stopped making turn based games or RPG's or other genres. The Sierra-style hunt-and-peck adventure game died, but Sierra did that themselves by milking franchises and delivering a sub-standard product with, lets face it, boring and cliched gameplay. Not sure what other genre was killed at around that time. If anything, PC gaming flourished. Warcraft, X-wing/TIE fighter, Elder Scrolls, Sim City 2000, Command and Conquer, Mech Warrior, 7th Guest, Civ II, Diablo, etc came out around that time.

> The Sierra-style hunt-and-peck adventure game died, but Sierra did that themselves by milking franchises and delivering a sub-standard product with, lets face it, boring and cliched gameplay.

Even that seems to be undergoing a bit of a revival, e.g. Deponia.

Lucas Arts consistently delivered (Full Throttle, The Curse of Monkey Island, Grim Fandango) and died too.

Obligatory link to Old Man Murray's "Who Killed Adventure Games?":

http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/77.html

Are you kidding? There are more high-quality games in all sorts of genres getting made now than there ever have been, especially in 1993.

Your post sounds an awful lot like "they stopped making good music back in [year I graduated high school]."

You're probably right. And that illustrates why it's hard for me to get back into gaming again: it would be like trying to get back into the music I liked when I was 16. That scene is certainly still active and some of the music is probably good, but they have moved on and I have moved on, and the gulf that separates us keeps expanding.

Around or after 2000, it seemed that there was nothing left but first-person shooters. That probably wasn't true, but I wasn't interested enough to discover the other stuff, and so I stopped playing games. So I've never had enough desire to try Half-Life, GTA, or any of the other 3D titles that appear to be basically Doom with a handful of storyline elements interspersing the shooting.

If you ever get the time, I feel like Half-Life would be an awesome play-through for you. It really is the #1 FPS in terms of story for me, and I've been playing through the new Black Mesa port (it's HL on a newer engine) and it's been great.

HL2 is practically unbeatable in my mind, I sound like a fanboy but it and its Episodes are really an amazing series of games.

They are extremely good at putting you in the mindset of Gordon Freeman and at creating a sense of being chased and action while presenting very relatable characters.

Also, if FPS really has you that turned-off, there has been a great revival of strategy and Rogue-like indie games recently. But it all depends on what you're interested in.

If you hate action and want to be impressed by an immersive FP experience, look at Gone Home.

http://www.gonehomegame.com/

I think pavlov likes games with a defined, fleshed out protagonist, and Gordon Freeman is pretty close to a blank slate as you can get.

As for recommendations, pavlov hasn't mentioned any genres or games that he particularly liked. Adventure games were pretty common back then and "died" around 2000, so I suggest looking into anything by Telltale Games or Double Fine.

http://www.telltalegames.com/

http://www.doublefine.com/

GTA is not anything like Doom. It's not a shooter, it's not first person, etc.

I feel like you're out on a limb in this whole comment thread.

From the sounds of it, he apparently simply hates the 3rd Dimension..

If you don't hate jump puzzles, you'll probably like FEZ (by Polytron Corp.). It doesn't have much of an explicit story, but there are things scattered here and there that do a bit of world-building.

Psychonauts (by Double Fine) might be too shooter-y for you, but I'm really fond of the strong characters that you meet throughout the game (each with a backstory of some depth).

Both of these games are pretty cheap on Steam, if you're not opposed to using Steam. They both run on Windows, Mac, and Linux.

I was in much the same situation. I dropped out of gaming around the time of quake for much of the same reasons, repetitive shooting, focused on how fast you can respond instead of on storyline and puzzles.

But, i've gotten back into things. I've really enjoyed both portal games, and following that asked around for something that is story-driven and got recommended the mass effect trilogy. I've since played through mass effect 1 and 2, and while there's a lot of shooting involved, the shooting makes sense as part of the story, and you are never forced in situations where you have to rely on reflexes. The mass effect storyline itself is fantastic. It's a grand adventure that unfolds over the three parts, and i'm really looking forward to playing part 3.

Edit: another game that i really liked focused heavily on puzzle solving with a decent storyline is mirror's edge.

That's unfair.

Doom was a beast of an engine on its time and achieved some technical feats which were key for our current gaming/graphics scene. Maybe the game isn't really interesting story-wise, but is it really when games went downhill?

We wouldn't have Quake without Doom, and we wouldn't have Half Life without Quake... Half Life is quite a great game, which perfectly blended the FPS genre with an interesting story development. You just can't say Half Life is repetitive or monotonous and you can certainly relate to the main character.

Gaming went downhill when the industry took over.

I would agree except for the Antlions. Infuriating gameplay.

It is really interesting to me that you say there was a lack of identification with the protagonist because for me the best FPS games are ones where I am the protagonist. BJ Blakoqitz (however it was spelled. too lazy to look it up) wasn't a charater. He was a set of eyes for me to look through and I wasn't playing as BJ, BJ was me. I was the one in that situation.

With traditional narrative films I might say, "Wouldn't it be cool to be ____" or "What would I do if I were the main character?" but in a good FPS it is more like "What would I do if I were there?" Which really makes identification a really different thing. I'm not even sure if I would call it identification at that point.

So it is interesting to see that someone doesn't feel like that.

This reminds me of a cool narrative trick used in Half Life. Gordon Freeman, the protagonist, does not speak a word in the whole series! Whatever emotions or thoughts you experience is supposed to mimic how Gordon would feel. Gordon speaking would break the illusion.

It eventually turned into a joke in HL2 where Alyx, your sidekick, jokes about your silence.

Also, you never get any cutscenes that cuts to third person or locks your movement (except when your character is physically trapped). Everything is done to give the feeling that you truly are Gordon Freeman.

Because nobody ever made another game that wasn't a FPS after Doom, right?

Come on. Be realistic. Yes, the FPS genre is not for everyone. But neither is whatever genre is your favorite.

Just because FPSes exist and are popular doesn't mean that games you like don't get made. And if the games you like really don't get made, then you should go out and make them.

I don't think Doom was to blame for somehow dumbing games down, before Doom and FPS it was all about side scrolling shooters.

You are wrong, the flight-sim, RPG, adventure and space flight games genre together with many other types of first person games were flourishing way before Doom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm8VTZ2fyos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aipGP5oAuWQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uXZxDzqHIo

It was Elite back in 1984 that broke the mold of simple side-scrolling games.

http://www.eliteforever.co.uk/history.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffQ_Uw55S3o

Also back in 1993 there were major technical achievements like:

Strike Commander http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-ElsuJY8A

F-15 Strike Eagle 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koNyQ7J88xY

Papyrus Indycar Racing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfnNo7AG7FA

Frontier: Elite 2

http://frontier.co.uk/games/older/frontier_elite_ii

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc9o_ldmlVs&t=72

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9E1E1F7AA6193498

Which are sadly ignored by mainstream media.

Games with varying levels of sophistication were produced both before and after Doom.

I felt the same way about Wolfenstein 3D. The graphics were neat, but the game was a big step back from its 2D namesake on 8-bit hardware. It was just run and shoot and rub along walls hoping for a secret panel. I never understood why so many people wanted to clone it. Mostly the engine, I guess, because the game was just an ok design.

Doom, though, was amazing. It was a much more realized world, both visually and in terms of mood and design. Eventually the levels got a bit too puzzley, but it certainly deserves all the accolades heaped upon it.

This is a topic that essentially comes down to taste, but I'll attempt to outline the core appeal. You're right in saying that Wolf3D was mechanically simplistic when compared to the original - however, these choices were intentional. Carmack's engine provided a low-latency high-framerate simulation, albeit a relatively simple one. This was a fidelity in experience that was completely novel, so every decision was made to maximize the tactile feel of the moment-to-moment action. More complex gameplay elements were determined to be less of a priority if they a) technically slowed down the engine or b) kinetically slowed down the gameplay. This game was an appeal to the immediacy of the onscreen action, even moreso than the first-person perspective. Thankfully, this continued to be a core value for id, which is more than could be said for other shooters that offhandedly throw away input fidelity.

If you like dystopian near-future scifi, try the Deus Ex series. Though FPS in basic concept, they do not need to be played in pure twitching mode, and you should have no trouble identifying with the protagonist.

The FPS genre is stale that's for sure, why is only shooting or killing worthy of first person camera? I think Minecraft is the only game to remotely shake that foundation.

Ever heard of Gone Home? Definitely worth a shot if you're into nuanced stories.

Proteus is a FPsomething; certainly not a shooter game. Almost barely a game, more of an experience.

Portal, Penumbra, Antichamber, Quantum Conundrum, Mirror's Edge, off the top of my head. (Mirror's Edge does have some shooting, but it's mostly platforming, and IIRC the expansion pack removes combat entirely.) Portal alone touched off a revolution in first-person puzzlers, and Amnesia/Penumbra did something similar with atmospheric horror.

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