There’s a 1,200-year-old Phone in the Smithsonian Collections | Hacker News Reader

There’s a 1,200-year-old Phone in the Smithsonian Collections

smithsonianmag.com

91 pointsmdturnerphys37 comments

I think we radically underestimate the sheer volume of technology that predates 1500 Europe. (Roughly where we count the modern western world from.maybe)

From the Antikythera mechanism to Hero's steam engines, model planes in Mexico and ball bearings on Roman emperors ships, humans did not lack invention, but what bound the modern world together was not better inventors but cheap printing and wider distribution of those ideas so they would not die out when one location failed.

I suspect that civilisations occur when they make the retention and spread of ideas pass a critical mass (ie the empire provides sufficient protection that an idea created in one place can find a home elsewhere in the empire (comms network)

Tossed off in the middle of James Burke's connections, while he's driving a French postal van up a mountain on the way to tell the story about the discovery of the vacuum, is exactly this point. As people communicate faster and more reliably, knowledge spreads and advances.

http://www.transcriptsearch.com.es/id/w-pBZThdndI

grep for "postbox of europe"

I've got to mention: Burke's entire ouvre is available on YouTube (as best I can tell posted by the man himself).

I've been tremendously enjoying re-visiting his original series, Connections, and viewing The Day the Universe Changed for the first time. Connections2 has been a bit of a let-down (too commercial and rushed with 22 minute episodes, and retreading much of his earlier material) though it too has its moments. I haven't gotten to Connections3 yet. I highly recommend at least the first two, which very much focus on how ideas develop, spread, and emerge.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JamesBurkeConnection

Off topic : this transcript viewer is pretty convenient.

I was watching a video on axes and an expert in stone age hand axes used the curious phrase "...was present in the human inventory for a million years...". It got the gears turning and I started to think about the size and scale of the human inventory at any specific snapshot in time and importantly about parallel development in certain technologies -- like the bow and arrow or thatched roofing.

Even how certain classes of items concentrated in the local inventory of certain areas and led to the development of one class of technology over another.

No conclusions from it, but it partially reframed the concept of "stuff" for me.

What about a fax machine from 1800

The Pantelegrafo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLhWSb8pcB8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelegraph

1860, but still very cool. Thanks for the link!

I note that banking apparently drove the entrenchment of the technology: "The most common use of the Pantelegraph was for signature verification in banking transactions."

Bonelli's Typotelegraph is also an 1862-era invention: http://www.hffax.de/hauptteil_faxhistory-Dateien/Caselli02.g... (from http://www.hffax.de/html/hauptteil_faxhistory.htm)

Though it is fascinating how old such an artifact is, it doesn't at all surprise me that such a communication device was invented and used during ancient times. Going from the picture, the 'phone' doesn't look too sophisticated but has the functionality that justifies its utility for an ancient civilization.

Perhaps not surprising, but fascinating to think of how it went from "doesn't exist" to "connect two gourds with twine, speak and listen." When it didn't exist, what phenomenon or technology might have provided the hint that connecting two gourds together would transmit sound?

In researching the history of musical instruments, I discovered that many distant cultures independently developed hunting bows and it is believed these are the original of stringed instruments.

So, the concept of a taught string bound to a resonating body, simple as it is may have been a precursor.

It is possible gourds where used as mounting points on some of the contraptions, and the ability of hollow spaces to resonate was probably already known... which leads to Capoeira-like instruments...

but the next leap of getting the thing to pick up voice is imo a larger conceptual leap. Of course, by then, written language was widespread and ideas could maintain a bit more momentum...

Yet still, notice how the bottom of the cup is of a different material and not tightly coupled to the rest of the cup. It's attached with a woven or knitted "sock." That's where energy leaves the system instead of bouncing energy back into the twine like bows. That's a great conceptual leap, considering it's not totally obvious to most people today how the bridge of stringed instrument works :)

I imagine they had built large string and hollow-body resonator combinations...

Yet it's yet another step to make it "input-"sensitive to human voice :)

It mentions that this was a culture without written language. I wonder if that was important - once you develop writing, it might be easier to pass notes than invent this.

The Incas that followed them had recorded language. I doubt it is really known positively that Chimu had no recorded language. There are quite a few peoples groups in the western hemisphere for which it is commonly asserted by outsiders they had no recorded language, but once you start studying them at all, you find they have a recorded language.

they probably recognized sound as just vibrations in materials. it's a pretty straightforward observation, in my opinion. actually thinking of using a string in that way is the "outside the box" part

i think generally ancient people don't get the credit they deserve. they weren't dummies. even now-silly-sounding ideas (e.g. geocentric model) had logic to them (e.g. stars had no apparent parallax)

One thing you come to appreciate through the study of history is that people weren't stupid. Just because they don't have iPads and blogs doesn't mean they were less capable, as individuals or as a group. If you compare the current state of elected officials today to 200 years ago, you'd come to appreciate it too.

An interesting thought experiment is to assume a group of engineers, with perfect understanding of our modern technologies and how to make them travel back in time to the stone age. How long would it take for them to arrive back at our current technology knowing what the critical path to do so would be?

A simplified version of this experiment: http://www.thetoasterproject.org/

I wish for readings on this minimal bootstrap too. And also can it be done by a single person.

The single-person question is an interesting one. My instinct is to say: "let's try it". Of course I begin by performing a mental simulation. And it then occurs to me that this might be expensive, time-consuming, very, very difficult (especially obtaining materials!) but most of all dangerous. I suddenly wonder how many people have been maimed or killed developing modern (manufacturing, especially) techniques. Even if it's possible for one person to do; what are the odds of survival?

Ok let's make intermediate challenges, maybe not current tech, just enough to survive comfortably. Function of some context (different paths whether you start in Africa or Russia because of material, climate and such)

  - math/physics knowledge to assemble tools
    - having regular heat sources
    - building a small shelter
    - regular nutrient sources

then there's room for

  - increasingly precise and versatile tools
  - finding ways to generate and store electricity (wind, water)
  - light
  - optics
  - radiowaves/communication

</daydream>

Maybe that you could hear someone through a wall, so why not through a string?

Stringed instruments, if part of the local culture, would provide another hint.

I'd also guess that strings would sometimes be used for crude 'stop/go' or 'come here' communication over distances, via tugs – perhaps ringing a bell or drum at the far end. One person at the 'clapper' element, noticing a hint of vibrations/sound from the distant end, via the string, in more resolution than a discrete tug/ring, might get the necessary insight.

Sound is essentially vibration. Challenge to making phone is to capture that vibration, transmit it for some distance, and then reproduce it. To make such a device you need to understand that. I think that is what makes this discovery fascinating. In advent of modern technology we often discount ingenuity of the past. Makes you wonder how many people hailed for making world changing technologies simply improved on what was already there.

Deleted comment

Quipus are interesting: using knots in string to encode columns of decimal numbers. They also had a device (made of beans and slots) for doing calculation (similar to how an abacus works I guess). The Incas had spreadsheets.

But is it really a telephone? Could the purpose of these two gourds on a string have been something else? I'm not discounting the engineering prowess of the Chimu, but sometimes one has to be careful assigning modern-day interpretations to ancient artifacts.

The article describes "stretched-hide membranes stitched around the bases of the receivers". This is actually a big improvement on the "tin cans on a string" model.

>Could the purpose of these two gourds on a string have been something else?

Nope, the design and structure of it, simple as it is, are pretty telling.

A single gourd on a string is a musical instrument in several cultures.

I don't think that's the case here, but it might have been how it was invented.

Thanks for sharing. My history of technology professor at the University of Minnesota used to speak of the "precocious technology" of Medieval Europe, in which artisans often invented devices that could not be fully explained by the science of the time. Precocious technology is, of course, a worldwide phenomenon and a phenomenon from all eras (including our own). The astonishing artifact reported on here has very unclear provenance--it's not clear how it passed into the hands of the collector from whose collection it came into the Smithsonian museums. Moreover, the lack of writing in the culture of origin at the time the artifact is thought to have been made means there is no history (written records) to supplement archaeology for inferences about the cultural role of the artifact. But it is a thought-provoking find all the same, and an example of what else might be missing from the archaeological record.

The Antikythera mechanism still remains by far the most fascinating ancient artifact.

That and Heron's steam engine.

Aside: the ship using the AM sank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

The more interesting questions: Was the ship's sinking the loss of a one-off prototype? Was the device blamed/abandoned, even if not at fault? Craftsmanship suggests it wasn't an early version--but where are the others?

On topic: humans are no more smart today than they were 2000 years ago; they just have better tools. Nanos gigantum humeris insidentes,someone once said.

It seems in improbably good condition for something over 1000 years old and made of organic components, so given its somewhat vague provenance I'd like something to confirm its age. Has it been carbon dated?

It seems in improbably good condition for something over 1000 years old and made of organic components

Not at all. Dry climates means things keep well if they aren't disturbed. Witness, for example, 3000 year old leather sandals[1], or a 5500 year old shoe[2]

There are plenty of woven clothes much older than 1200 years, too[3].

However, none of the supposed woollen/felt clothes and hangings[4] from Catal Huyuk have survived. That puts a limit of around 8000 years on the life of wool.

[1] http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_ob...

[2] http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2010/06/100609-wo...

[3] http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00118/salon2.html

[4] http://www.marlamallett.com/chupdate.htm

There's no mention in the article of any testing based on a replica or reproduction of the design -- does anyone know if this has been done?

(The article does mention that the artifact itself is too delicate to test.)

Someone somewhere is happy the Smithsonian finally found his lost phone. But that someone would like to get it back.

Hi yes this is Indian

If by Indian you mean "native american indians of Peru", then yes.

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