NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show
washingtonpost.com
washingtonpost.com
That, or something to keep football from being televised on Sunday.
Please, Edward. Tell me there is something up your sleeve that will get people to realize that this is actually a really fucking big thing and that it needs to stop right away.
EDIT: As it so happens, Glenn Beck is actually not in favor of this type of surveillance. I would have never guessed. I thought I was pretty safe in that assumption.
For instance, this should be front-page news everywhere. Full stop. Instead, the front page of www.cnn.com is currently populated by yet another Paul Walker death story, www.msnbc.com does not have any reference to it on its home page, and www.foxnews.com is devoid of this bombshell as well.
It really looks like the American populace at large is perfectly okay with being spied on and tracked everywhere. For all of the talk there is about wanting a smaller government, there sure ain't a hell of a lot of action. I cannot think of a government that is bigger than one that tracks your every move, forever.
All that matters post Snowden Revelations is Game Theory - as if this isn't how it's always been. It doesn't even matter what he says now, he has established himself as a Character. Whether he's even a legitimate individual is irrelevant. The fact that he and WikiLeaks both choose to release their documents over time instead of in a single dump gives them the advantage of having or following a script. The only ones who don't know what's on those documents are the public. There honestly doesn't seem to be a reason to trust either party and I doubt either will ever be in any real danger unless they so choose so, because that's all people seem to want in life is to be remembered after death.
The only thing that could ever work is individuals in power promoting a strictly decentralized or public society. Yet, this will never happen because High School never ends, and someone always wants to run the show. So, if the whole worlds a stage how come you aren't looking at the stars?
The downside of this is that the public/media have a short attention span - 'oh look, the 3rd NSA story this week', and then what probably should've been front page material gets hidden away
The DNC is doing their annual "survey fund raiser" respond to it if you have one. I'm certain the RNC is doing something too. Write letters to you representatives, call them. I know this will shock and sound sacrilege to many here, give your sitting representatives $100 and share your opinion. Make defunding NSA your number one issue. We can play the game and it's not that expensive to be heard.
It won't stop right away, it could take time but it's closer than you think. Let the people in power know it's your biggest issue and put some campaign funds in to the mix to let the know this is for real. Moreover, I'd hope facebook, ms, google, etc would pony up some serious lobbyists, we need to beat that drum too.
The implication that Americans being "incidentally" caught in the dragnet is the only aspect that makes this egregious is absolutely fucking disgusting. This is a habit endemic in the American media that persistently differentiates between Americans and mere humans, as if the former is sacred and the latter mere fodder. I try to avoid swearing in comments, but damn it that's how angry this attitude makes me (and pretty much every non-American, I'm sure).
The Declaration of Independence says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
This would mean that trespassing on these unalienable rights of 'all men' (citizen, foreigner, or not) would be hypocritical.
I suspect the answer to whether this was been written into law lies in secret interpretations of secret passages of the PATRIOT Acts, and that our rights have been, in secret, broadly abridged if not suspended.
The NSA charter restricts directly targeting Americans unless related to an international threat. i.e. FISA warrants ("Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act").
Instances of parallel construction emerge when evidence potentially useful for a domestic investigation is incidentally uncovered. Were it to be directly targeted when the individual has had no foreign communication, it would exceed the (very broad) scope of the NSA.
So it hasn't been "blown wide open". It is just that many people don't seem to particularly care about the nuances of either the NSA's charter or "Parallel construction" and throw terms around.
Your language is curious for someone who claims a nuanced understanding: "otherwise inadmissible evidence can be used in court"[1], "alternative lawful method"[2].
[1] is wrong because the evidence the NSA use for the tip, however legally or illegally it was acquired, is not used in court. Exhonerating evidence they acquired is not seen by the court.
[2] if the initial acquisition is inadmissible because it's illegally acquired then the alternative evidence acquisition is fruit of the poisoned tree, and any cover up probably illegal.
[1] and [2] imply the evidence acquired by the NSA and the DEA are the same evidence, and this is not the case.
The DOJ are investigating "Parallel Construction". If it was obviously legitimate, they would not be.
Alternatively, "people" could be skeptical of whether parallel construction isn't about "tips" "nuances" and observing a "charter." Rather that it amounts to getting a pre-cooked investigation that you just color-by-numbers to launder domestic spying.
As a global population, we seem to have made this deal, but I'm not aware of ever being consciously offered the choice. Can I change my mind now?
Oh, and your closest allies will be marginalized, smelly and opinionated; and on the lam.
Genuine question, do you actually believe this, or are you referring to it as fiction in the same way the Matrix is fictional?
I do think that our government took a serious wrong turn after 9/11, and that our collective self-image ("beacon of democracy" and all that jazz) is increasingly at odds with our behavior. More and more the US government seems to be driven by non-human motives. Non-human in that even the people at the very top seem cognitively overwhelmed and more as if they were being acted upon by unseen forces whose existence can be inferred by the traces they leave behind; but whose intent and motivation are obscure.
You changing your mind is irrelevant to global agenda and the way things will be executed. Most people "change" their mind by stopping to vote for one party (D) and changing to another (R). Example of spying on its citizens is a great example when your change of choice does not make a dent; it is President Bush (R) who signed Patroit Act/NSA spying into law, its is then President Obama (D) who said he will stop this only to continue and expand while elected. And people have short memory so now they will vote again on R. Nothing will change at the end and you can be sure those who come in place with continue or extend the abuse up to the point when system entirely collapse.
Or the 20% of the population of the _US_ that don't use the internet.
You can even still use a cell phone, if you want - just buy a prepaid mobile with cash.
And aside from awkwardness with your friends, you might even find such a life quite livable. You'll experience no material hardship.
Actually this is exactly the kind of thing this data would sniff out. It would capture whichever cell towers you interact with (home, work, etc) and paired with data from your friends & their call logs could easily pinpoint who you are. Kind of amazing from an analytical standpoint but pretty scary for privacy.
Do not appear on any camera/picture.
Do not purchase anything with any kind of card.
Do not drive a car (License plate recognition systems are getting scary.)
Etc...
You sound like a person who hasn't moved a long distance from their family.
Also, you can't use a cellphone without them knowing who you are with high certainty. It only takes 3 points of location data to identify a person the vast majority of the time[1]. Using a cell phone that you paid for with cash is insufficient.
[1] http://www.livescience.com/28353-anonymous-phone-data-not-an...
What that has to do with anything, god only knows, unless you meant something like '100 miles away from the border', and even then I'm at a loss.
Go visit a flyover state sometime. Most of the country's very different than SV/the northeast corridor/other modern urbanized area, and I wouldn't live there if you paid me.
[1]: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-constitution-free-zone...
Not necessarily right, but that's how I go there.
So actually 19%, yes.
One of the biggest is the destruction of creativity. When people know that their actions are under constant surveillance it creates an enormous cognitive load. They have to constantly evaluate everything they do as to how it might appear to a critical observer. The end result is that people will simply stop doing anything that might have a social risk associated with it.
A panopticon society will be a dull, stagnant and repressed society. Think of every little backwards town where everybody knows everybody's business and anyone who steps out of line is ostracized. That is what our entire society will turn into with total surveillance.
and i don't think anyone claims it wouldn't be a different culture, or that we should throw away core privacy like being able to sleep in our own beds without someone watching
That's basically Brin's theory and it is a bad one because it assumes, against all evidence to the contrary, that people will just simply stop looking for ways to judge other people as being inferior.
It is a misunderstanding that it is the communication infrastructure and technology under attack here. It is not.
It is the abstract idea of Freedom that is under attack, and so a technology based solution is not the answer. More than powerful technology, we need powerful new ideas about Freedom.
New technology implementations that fix existing attack vectors would still be most welcome, but not a cure all.
Communication intercepts may have, but wiretaps haven't existed longer than communication by wire.
Doesn't this revelation prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the USA is even worse than the imagined world of 1984?
Speak for yourself. As a European I'm apparently a "foreign target".
2. Have I been pwned? Check if your email has been...
213 points by mountaineer 4 hours ago
3. NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, ...
266 points by 001sky 2 hours agoWhile it may largely be legally true, I think the presumption that that is a valid defense needs to be challenged more often.
Phrases like "intended strictly to develop intelligence about foreign targets" seems to be regularly used by reporters in such a way as to imply that, if true, the surveillance would be a-ok.
The difference between the rights of Americans vs non-Americans, with regard to US intelligence services, is an interesting one. Certainly non-Americans are deserving of at least some protections. I would hope that we could provide most of the world with the same level of respect as we do each other.
This page design is infinitely better than the other one, also linked on the HN front page. Seems like you get a choice. Hooray for freedom!
When you have the opportunity to show someone an ad-free, single page, uncluttered version of a piece of literature, do it. Please. Always.
I've never come across this view – can you tell me why you hold that opinion?
Look at what they call "underwriting" on nonprofit independent or public radio stations. "This production is brought to you by Bill's Shoes, 123 Main Street, Saginaw. Selling Men's and Women's shoes, boots and sandals since 1982."
Advertising goes beyond that, using false superlatives, misleading copy, calls to action, and peer pressure, at best. At worst it's just lies. There is nothing free about "buy one get one free", for instance. It's a lie. Sales, "deals", "limited time only" -- these are psychological games. Manipulation. Often, the "everyday" price the sale prices is marked down from, is a lie. Misleading propaganda at best. Straight up fraud at worst. This is the everyday "harmless" content we allow our children and politicians to watch.
And that's just traditional television, radio and print advertising. What passes for advertising on the internet is uniformly awful. I'd call most of it malware.
Also, the original page has a single page, no pagination:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tr...
perhaps?
<!-- yes, I know...wanna fight about it? -->
Best laugh I've had all day.However, when posting a link on a site that will likely generate hundreds of hits (3% of which might click the ad), its only fair to THE COMPANY to post to their main site.
I don't think it's really that big of a deal. If it was a subscription service we were all bypassing without paying that's one thing, but this is just another page on their public website like anything else.
If you don't want people to see it, don't publish it online.
Everyone should promise to buy whatever product is being advertised or at least convince themselves that their brain patterns have been changed so that they are more likely to buy the product in the future.
It's only fair to WaPo.
Inferring High Quality Co-Travel Networks, 20 May, 2013: http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4429 pdf here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.4429.pdf
Every time I read something NSA/FBI/CIA/KGB/Interpol/MI5/Stasi related I get this instinctive feeling of angriness and sadness at the same time.
We were given the “internet”, pretty much for free, and we believed it would be a fair deal? That there would be nothing in for them? When was the last time you were give something for free, can you even remember? They are breaking encryption? Really?! Didn’t we learn that it’s not feasible to break encryption? Ah, but they are using quantum computers, right. Should we even believe Snowden and Assange and Schneier, or anyone really? My father even thinks they are watching him through the cable set. Am I supposed to argue with him about the opposite?
Worldwide, governments and agencies and individuals control whatever they want, however they want, whenever they want. And we are just siting and watching them. Individuals are profiting from illegal activities? Who cares? NSA is breaking an amendment? Who cares? Governments are saying A and doing B? Who cares?All these are breaking the law? They are the law. We let them become the law. Because we don’t care.
Damon Albarn (songwriter of the virtual music group Gorillaz) was once asked about X-Factor (a music reality show) and his answer applies not only to it but to a lot of things in our lives too: Every time you do even a little thing that harms your privacy or your freedom or even your dignity, it might not do a lot of harm because it is little but what’s actually happening is that you are moving the privacy/freedom/dignity barrier away from where it should be. And all these times, all these “littles”, they sum up and next time you do something very bad it looks little again but it’s very very big.
Because you don’t realise how much the barrier has moved. We didn’t care when we had to pay unreasonable taxes last year. We don’t care when politicians lie to us in front of our sad faces, time after time, election after election. We don’t care about other any other person’s rights. We don’t care about unfairness all over around us. We don’t care about any kind of oppression, anywhere in the world. So we won’t care when we find out that someone is scrapping this page and is adding data to our profiles on a database. Of course we won’t. We don’t care that in 2014 we can send rockets to the space but haven’t evolved our culture to to the point where it would be our collective duty as the human race to make sure that everybody on this planet can have all the water and the food they need and access to an amazing education and an incredible health system for their whole life.
We have lost the war, and we don’t even care. We should expect the worst, really.
Now, please, save the “if you really cared you would actually do something” comments. Because the truth is, I can’t do anything. Not alone. I can’t make anyone care. Most of us can’t. We don’t have access to them, we don’t have the mediums to stimulate them, we don’t have nothing. I didn’t want to become a politician or a media baron or a general or anything that involves that sort of authority over other people anyway. I wanted to become a sports writer, then a columnist, then an academic and then a software developer. And I am not even a talented software developer that can hack for good or build software that will help liberate the world. And I believe that protests and occupying and rioting and any sort of such action is just expansion and nothing else, so I don’t do it. But this fact, that I haven’t found a way to “fight”, doesn’t mean I can not be heartedly disappointed by our collective indifference. Maybe that’s what I can offer, these typed words.
I shouldn’t be writing this.
I should be working on my personal project that will help me get a job and make money instead. I shouldn’t even care as much to talk about it.
But all that is left is our ideas and voices, really, and I just can’t give up without even saying a few things — even to an online community where I know nobody. Not to change anything, probably, but at least to say I tried.
I shouldn’t be writing this. But I care. And I hope you start caring too.
(I have also published this comment on medium: https://medium.com/p/ebcea7330613)
I have to pay to get to the internet. The internet where people willingly create content. People with private information create content to be seen without additional payments. Companies create content to advertise and sell their products and so on.
I see this as a fair deal. Why not?
I agree with the rest of you posting but I don't see this as a price for the Internet. I see it more of a result of the greed that accompanies this economic system. It is something that may bring more money in. Thats why they do it and thats why they advertised and sold it pretty so good. People are happy today to give away their privacy. Happy customer, happy industry. Governments just profit from the advertisements and their effect. Thats why this NSA thing will pass and in the end there will be no solution for the masses.
But I see a way. There will always be those who find ways to improve security. If those develop tools easy enough that the usual internet surfer can use you just need to make this "cool".
This already happens. Recently there was a TV show here in Germany where the host confronted some individuals in the audience with "private" information from their social networks. The people were shocked. Some were even angry. Those people will think about it twice. The angry one will defintly start making their facebook page at least private (or friends only). "Personal-Leaks" could create this effect for huge ammounts of people and they may be a thing in the future.
I still have hope.
The industry can do whatever it wants as long as it is legal. But it's not only about the industry, it's about the bigger picture. It's about a few guys with cameras around you recording every single thing you do and say (yes, yes, only while you are online and only while you are carrying a cellphone). I don't know what exactly they are doing with this information and I don't need to know in order to have the right to say that I don't like it.
I have hope too, but things are currently heading in a very wrong direction.
First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.
The federal government has been exceeding its authority since its inception, hell, if not before. James Madison, as president, couldn't figure out how to reconcile his responsibility to build a system of highways (which he thought was a fantastic idea) with the constraints on the federal government imposed by the Constitution.
Since that time, we've gone well beyond highways; We've implemented social security, medicare, medicaid, Obamacare. We've ratified the Constitution to allow for a federal income tax to support it all. We've banned alcohol, pissed everybody off, and unbanned it again. We've attempted to curtail the first, second, fourth, fifth amendments, etc.
We've got a nation full of people who voted in the last guy largely because they thought he'd give them affordable health care, ignoring that, at least in my interpretation of a limited federal government and separation of powers, our government should never have been allowed to grow large enough to be that way.
We've demanded that the government fix this thing, that thing, the other thing; clean our waters, enforce minimum wages, keep us safe from drug companies, fight our wars -- then we wonder how we've gotten to exist in a nanny state?
As a parent, it's always been hard to reconcile the notion of freedom with parenthood. In an ideal world, my child would be free to take drugs recreationally, sacrifice education for an early entry to the work force (or vice versa), prostitute herself for pay (literally, not figuratively)... but as her parent, I want none of those things for her, so I disallow them. In that same vain, if we treat our government like the father whose duty it is to protect us, it should not surprise us that the father bans us from potentially harmful activities, reads our diary, looks through our phones and follows us around in his car -- to keep us safe.
These are the things parents do. I don't know of a time it's occurred specifically, but I'm sure that I've unjustly grounded my child at least once. I'm sure that I've disallowed her from doing something that I would cheer on if done by an adult peer. I'm sure that I've invaded her privacy, and if she were an adult, possibly even violated her civil liberties. On three occasions in her 12 years of life, I've assaulted her by spanking.
Make no mistake -- I'm not advocating the government's actions, or excusing them... not in any way. I am very dumbstruck that so many share my condemnation of these actions, because so many people are those that voted for health care, for social security, for national defense, for the EPA, the FCC, the TSA, etc., for the safety that only a government all-father can provide. We've allowed this to go on for decades, perhaps most of the time we've been a nation, really. Our founding fathers warned us (well, most of them) that this would happen if we weren't vigilantly watching our government, and it has happened, precisely because we weren't vigilantly watching our government.
Or perhaps it's always been this way, with approximately half of our electorate desperately wishing our government would do far more, with the other half desperately wishing our government would do far less.
Either way, fixing it may be too far gone. As near as I've mapped back to, the idea of federal constraint hasn't really existed since the mid-30s, possibly even earlier than that. I try to vote Libertarian, but at a federal level, that's hard to do, and comes with its own baggage. Rand Paul, whom I agree with on a great many issues, has some views that perplex me, as did his father. I'm also not convinced that he isn't a consummate politician.
I disagree with many of Obama's political choices, but I did sincerely believe that he would try to live up to more of his election promises, promises that now seem like nothing more than the pre-election fodder that we get from every politician in recent memory. I worry that Rand Paul is no better, or that if there are forces controlling Obama's hand, that they won't similarly control his.
What's even worse than that is that I don't even know if our country can exist under the style of government that I want for it. It might well be that we're all better off in a socialist nation, where the government is indeed the caretaker for all, and that in order to have a nation that works, we should just succumb to that. It's not Constitutional, and I would pray that if we were in fact headed that direction, we'd at least try to ratify the Constitution, or abolish it altogether in lieu of its replacement.
Surely, the minarchist type of federal government the Constitution prescribes would lead to a far harsher nation with fewer large infrastructure problems, fewer social programs... but with it, we would indeed get far more freedom. And at least for me, sitting in the comfort of my living room, typing on the DARPA supplied internet, on the Macbook borne of foreign labor, paid for with the government's wage protections, fair and equitable treatment, and contract enforcement, that price is worth paying... but I fear it would be too high for too many, and the end result is a loop back around to exactly where we are.
Anyway, apologies for the rant. I don't intend to make a point, or convert anyone's political beliefs, or even elucidate anyone to my own political beliefs, which I have little confidence in at the moment -- but your reply resonated with me, and I felt it deserved a sincere response, even if it amounts to very little.
The "father" example you are giving has been the very exact argument people have against this kind of situations: We don't want any structure to act like it is our father or mother while your daughter (and most daughters and sons) will probably start crying if you tell them you are going to go away from their life.
As a society we have agreed (actively or passively) to a certain set of laws, that should be it. No Uncle Sam or Brother Jonathan.
What group is no longer here because the CIA/NSA have decided they shouldn't exist?
When the "THEY" of tomorrow are handed the keys to this vast panopticon that they didn't have to build themselves, how will "THEY" behave. No one can be sure.
Consider the men that inherited the ash heap of Europe after WWI. What did those men do?
They started WWII.
The current challenge is global terrorism, but the swing towards authoritarianism by Western governments may end up being FAR worse than the threat of terrorism.
And we're not swinging towards authoritarianism. That's absolutely a lie. Want to know the irony in you saying that? That you can say that, and not fear your door being knocked down and you being questioned. You don't know authoritarianism if you think the US is headed that way. Authoritarianism is not being able to criticize the government. Authoritarianism is the inability to change the government. Authoritarianism is a very loaded word, and your misuse of it only clouds the real problems the US government has, of which there are undeniably many.
People like you who go chicken-little constantly by bandying about words like "authoritarianism" create huge political blockage, which causes government standstills like what we're seeing in congress today. Lawmakers are afraid to do anything, because every time they try, it ends with some lawmaker or another being portrayed as eating children under a bridge somewhere, and his/her constituents buy it enough to oust him/her, despite just trying to make this country a better place.
Looking across the pond at England, they went from filtering the internet to block child porn, to filtering the internet to block extremists in less than one year. You have UK law enforcement harassing and intimidating legitimate journalism about the out of control surveillance state.
Maybe none of that is alarming to you, and maybe you don't think any of those things are along the road that leads to an authoritarian state, but I and many others feel differently. Either way, just because my perception of events is different that yours doesn't make my perception a lie.
And have had them for many many years. Nothing new. We committed a genocide against a people in the 1900s, and enslaved another people in the 1800s, both of which I think are much worse things to do to people than where we are now. If you chart the kinds of freedoms people living in the US have throughout the US's existence, would you really try to say the average person is less free today? Obviously we're not done working on being better at that, and absolutely we slip, but I'm so sick and tired of this attitude that we're moving into a totalitarian state, when we only in the last 100ish years LEFT what amounted to one.
And a small point of order but obviously no, my perception isn't any more valid than yours, but there is an objective perception, and if your perception is not aligned with that objective flagpost, then yes, your perception is a lie.
No two people have the same life experience.
The very rawest form of perceptual subjectivity can be demonstrated by the interference of vision and sound caused by the McGurk effect. Search youtube for an example.
Being in a place where "authoritarianism" is one bad actor away is not a good place to be. If you feel that we 1) are not in that such a place, and 2) are not likely to be any time soon, then feel free to make that case.
I don't see any position of power that could act in such a way so as to gain unilateral control of the US government.
If they actually were doing all the awful things people keep saying they could do, e.g. congressional blackmail, the person doing those things would be shut down in a heartbeat. Do you honestly think the head of ANY government organization couldn't be dealt with if they went legitimately rogue?
And yes, it more or less does suggest it. It is very far from conclusive or I would be a lot more worried.
> Being in a place where "authoritarianism" is one bad actor away is not a good place to be.
If that's not what you meant, then what did you mean?
I really don't see how you can assert that the things I listed aren't more likely in an environment where those holding power in secret are extending and exercising that power, than in an environment where they are not, which is what it means to be evidence.
Under the NDAA, the president has the authority to enshrine anyone he wishes, subject to zero oversight, to a similar fate.
Under the PATRIOT Act, we've bombed American Citizens suspected of possibly committing a crime in the future without the benefit of oversight, due process, or any of the Constitutional protections ordinarily afforded to American citizens.
Aside from that, there are far more instances throughout history, but those are the (IMO) most egregious offenses under the current administration at least.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Merril
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpRp-D5v5NQl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT2fQu50sMs
Brewster Kahle is another from archive.org:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/06/what-...
Also, that's not the kind of silencing we're talking about. We're talking about the act of blackmail using data collected by spying programs.
"Then they came for the blah, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a blah."
In responding to the above, you said: "What group is no longer here because the CIA/NSA have decided they shouldn't exist?"
The absence of voices contesting this apparatus is used as a defence for the NSL's and a similar mechanism used under FISA.
200,000 is a huge number. Their dissenting voices don't exist legally, they cannot speak out.
Imagine this: "I didn't speak out for the blah because I got a national security letter."
I see no mention of blackmail, who were you talking to about blackmail?
Also, 192k requests were sent, not 200,000 people silenced.
Sensationalism ruins this debate. Please stop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Merrill works, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Merrill doesn't.
Edit: more oddly, they now both appear to work?
Edit: far less oddly, it looks like the OP just forgot to include the trailing 'L', and I hadn't noticed.
That doesn't mean it's okay. Think about what's going on here. The USA has basically created for itself a secret police with powers that, in practise, are very close to those of an agency like the KGB or the Stasi. Sure, as you point out, these new powers are not being used to cart people away wholesale. But you should still be very nervous.
Even now, we might be past the point of no return. That's not just hyperbole on my part. The way I see it, it's very easy to get into in a kind of ratchet situation where powers and abuses can only increase over time. We may already be there. It's politically very difficult to reduce powers for any agency, let one that pushes both military and law enforcement buttons. Even if calls for reform get taken seriously, they may be dealt with by sacrificing a scapegoat and making superficial changes. Even if there was a strong serious concerted political effort to reform the NSA and CIA do you really trust them not to interfere with it? Do you strongly believe, without any doubt, that the NSA and CIA are above blackmailing their own politicians?
For what it's worth - that's the very point of the poem, that it always starts with the undesirables, minorities, or peoples to whom the population wouldn't object to. The tacit implication there is that those people were all portrayed as evil first, allowing public acceptance of their abuse.
For the most part, even after Hitler started murdering Jews, he was still enjoyed pretty strong popularity.
And "Jews" isn't the same as "terrorists". The US isn't going after people based on what they look like or who their parents are, they're going after people based on what they do and say. I know, it's shocking, that when you try to enter into violent combat with a nation-state, that nation-state is going to kill you. Those assholes.
According to who, exactly? Who's to say that it isn't simply a placeholder for 'arab', or 'sheikh'?
It's worth noting that I don't think it actually is, and I don't know of any specific abuses of the powers enumerated by the aforementioned acts -- but the point isn't what they're doing is wrong (though it is), it's that we've allowed the government to grant itself the authority powerful enough that, if they wanted to start killing Jews, or Arabs, or Sheikhs, or whomever, they could. The NDAA and Patriot Act give them the authority to do so.
That is a very, very scary proposition to me. That we have abused such power in the past only lends further credence that we will again in the future, and while I don't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities in suggesting that our current administration is evil, there is literally nothing in place now to prevent us from electing a Hitleresque tyrant and him getting away with committing the slaughter of millions.
"Slippery slope fallacy" is an odd accusation as well, considering that somewhat accurately synopsizes many distinct periods in our world's history leading up to genocide, politicide and democide.
I'm sorry that you're so cavalier about the subject, but there's a very real argument that this is exactly the kind of authority the Constitution was designed to limit any single branch of the government from having with its separation of powers. If the executive branch has the power to detain or kill anyone it wishes with no Legislative or Judicial oversight, and the executive branch controls the US military, then there is literally no power that we can pretend it doesn't have.
Our nation was founded on the concept that nobody is exempt from the law, and the NDAA, Patriot Act and laws of their ilk are antithetical to that core tenet. They destroy the fifth amendment entirely, and do severe harm to other rights.
That said, on the quality of your reply, I'll end this conversation here. Regards.
Your problem boils down to the fact that there are people out there in this world who have power, and you do not. This bothers you. The NDAA and the Patriot Act weren't created in a bubble, and if you actually want to understand what caused them to be written other than malice (seriously?), you ought to read more about the history surrounding the times, as well as current events today.
Sometimes the US government goes too far, but not nearly as often, or nearly as extreme as you keep saying, and frankly it's just sad that someone like you can have even an infinitesimally small sway in how this country is run.
Presidential pardons have legal validity for purposes of righting wrongdoings, travesties of justice, and for preventing excessive punishment of those unjustly sentenced for political crimes, etc. It's stated intent is to correct injustice, not perpetrate it.
I'm not suggesting that every enemy combatant deserves trial -- in an active war, it is ridiculous to suggest that bullets are halted mid-air to conduct court. It is equally naive to suggest that the government is justified in the slaughter of everyone who might ever do us harm.
Has it been abused, certainly. Show me a law that hasn't. The difference between pardon and NDAA-type of laws is that the latter has no redeeming characteristic. Its sole purpose is to vest a single person with the power to do literally whatever he wishes, without oversight, without scrutiny, without potential for remediation. There is no justice to be found in its exertion, even when used for noble intent.
There are, or at least were, procedures in place that would have prevented such atrocity from occurring, but those procedures were nullified by the NDAA. There is no need for government oversight whatsoever, nor any reason to suggest that whomever happens to be president cannot simply murder whomever he wants under the guise of national interest.
I understand that the NDAA and PATRIOT Act weren't created in a bubble, but as you have implored me to "study the history" (which I am well aware of, and don't understand what I might have said to convince you of my ignorance of an era that I was actively involved in), I would implore you to study the documents that led up to our nation's independence.
Overwhelmingly, they point to the foulness of this sort of unchecked power, and the founding fathers literally made every effort to ensure that this sort of abuse never came to pass.
Whether or not the NDAA or PATRIOT Act is ever used is irrelevant, their very existence negates the tenets of our central foundation of governance.
> Sometimes the US government goes too far, but not nearly as often, or nearly as extreme as you keep saying
The federal government goes beyond its Constitutional authority literally every single day in this nation. The government exerts federal control in California to arrest the proprietors of legal marijuana dispensaries. They do this by abusing the Interstate Commerce Clause. The Commerce Clause grants Congress the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes" -- and by abusing the 'among', have defined that to mean that they can control any action within a state, whether or not that action may extend beyond a state's borders.
The federal government further abuses the 'Necessary and Proper' clause to extend its powers beyond their section 8 enumerated powers.
There are literally countless examples of federal overreach, some of which are gaining ground in recent times, like the overturning of DOMA (Thanks Obama). I'm sorry you don't see them, or don't see them as the overreach I so strongly believe them to be.
Either way, I won't further engage in a conversation predicated on your baseless attacks due to a relatively minor disagreement on merits. I would encourage you to learn how to converse with others without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Your views aren't invalid just because I disagree with them, however strongly I might, and you'd do well to acknowledge as much.
* Ad hominems would require I disqualify your argument based on who you are. Considering I don't know anything about you, that'd literally be impossible for me to do.
* Presidential pardons don't have any stated intents.
* The NDAA's sole purpose is not to vest a single person with the power to do literally whatever he wishes, whoever not whomever/
* Documents written over 200 years ago would have to be abstracted to the point of mootness to be relevant in the world we live in today.
* The Interstate Commerce Clause is part of the Constitution, so any usage of it is by definition constitutional.
* Same goes with the elastic clause. You're just repeating ancient complaints - people have been bitching about what you're complaining about here (abuse of these two clauses) since the dawn of the US, and yet somehow the US is still here today.
I'll say what I said before: you're not in power, and that scares you. Your reaction (a natural one) is to lash out at those who are in power, and come up with some kind of conspiratorial explanation of why the world is the way it is. Why? Because at least, if SOMEONE is in charge, then there's a plan, even if that plan is nefarious. To you, and people like you, the idea that events aren't being planned or orchestrated is a terrifying thought. No one in charge?! So you come up with these crackpot, "The US government is out of control!" theories to help sleep at night.
But that doesn't make them true.
It's no longer an ad hominem to say you're full of shit and don't know what you're talking about, as I've demonstrated that fact. It's merely a conclusion based on observation, at this point.
> Considering I don't know anything about you, that'd literally be impossible for me to do.
Let's compare and contrast those, for a moment, shall we?
> The Interstate Commerce Clause is part of the Constitution, so any usage of it is by definition constitutional.
The Interstate Commerce Clause has a definition, and whatever its definitions where, judicial precedence precludes it from trumping a right enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Also, just because something is "in" the Constitution does not mean that one can apply any contrived definition of its terms as justification for an action.
> people have been bitching about what you're complaining about here (abuse of these two clauses) since the dawn of the US, and yet somehow the US is still here today.
False. There is document stare decisis on record indicating a massive shift in these interpretations under FDR's reign. While I can't factually defend against the assertion that I'm rehashing old business (which I'll agree that I am), I can factually assert that it has not in fact 'always been this way', which falsifies your argument.
> It's no longer an ad hominem to say you're full of shit and don't know what you're talking about, as I've demonstrated that fact. It's merely a conclusion based on observation, at this point.
You haven't actually illustrated any points that are supported by fact. You've levied accusations, which you've supported with more accusations, none of which are provable.
In short, I shouldn't have responded to this post, but for some odd reason, I took poorly to being referred to as "full of shit" on a subject I've studied a good portion of my life by someone who is literally countering factual arguments with untruth.
This is the last topic I'll post on the matter, and I apologize to you and everyone else on HN for not having quit some time ago.
> While I can't factually defend against the assertion that I'm rehashing old business (which I'll agree that I am), I can factually assert that it has not in fact 'always been this way', which falsifies your argument.
> You've levied accusations, which you've supported with more accusations, none of which are provable.
> I took poorly to being referred to as "full of shit" on a subject I've studied a good portion of my life by someone who is literally countering factual arguments with untruth.
The first quote is in response to me saying, "The Constitution is, by definition, constitutional."
The second quote is you saying, "I could prove this but I won't." It reminds me of the schoolyard habit of claiming to know what a big word means, but then saying, "I'm not telling you!"
The third quote is exactly the kind of thing you've been railing against in our correspondence - that is, the focus on self rather than content.
The fourth quote is functionally an appeal to authority ("I've studied this for a long time, therefore I must know what I'm talking about!"). In reality, you may just a) suck at studying, or b) have caught yourself up in a feedback loop where your confirmation bias prevents you from actually learning anything.
Are you proud of yourself here? Have you presented the best form of your argument? What do you think I believe, at this point? I know your argument, but what is mine?
I just don't understand how a human being who thinks as much as you apparently do on this topic can write so little about it when asked explicitly to elaborate.
> The first quote is in response to me saying, "The Constitution is, by definition, constitutional."
False equivalency. What you said was, in fact:
> The Interstate Commerce Clause is part of the Constitution, so any usage of it is by definition constitutional.
Because today is repeal day... The 18th amendment is part of the Constitution, so any usage of it is by definition constitutional, right? Clearly, wrong. Judicial precedence supersedes it. The 18th amendment, and resultant Volstead act, was repealed by the 21st amendment. Per your assertion, the 18th amendment still holds Constitutional weight because it is part of the Constitution, despite the notion that it was expressly repealed.
Whether or not the 18th had been expressly repealed, it wouldn't even necessarily matter. If the 21st amendment did not expressly repeal the 18th, but instead stated less explicitly that "the sale or transportation of intoxicating liquors is not prohibited", then it would still supersede the provisions of the 18th amendment on the grounds of judicial precedence.
Judicial precedence applies to amendments, contracts, compacts, stare decisis and other forms of precedent. As such, the 21st amendment would, with that pithy statement, _de_ _facto_ have repealed the 18th amendment on grounds of simply being newer. The newer law, where contradictory to the older law, takes precedence.
The Commerce Clause, on those grounds, cannot infringe either states' rights or any of the amendments enumerated within the Bill of Rights, as each were ratified into the Constitution ex post facto which, under judicial precedence, prohibits its effect being interpreted as you've stated.
Beyond that, I also stated this:
> Also, just because something is "in" the Constitution does not mean that one can apply any contrived definition of its terms as justification for an action.
In the New Deal interpretation of the Commerce Clause, the Supreme Court, under much political pressure, having recently denied Constitutional rewrites to FDR, who threatened to replace the whole lot, had to bend language to make the written word match the intent. "Regulate", which had always been interpreted to mean "make regular" was now being interpreted as "to prohibit", despite almost 150 years of precedent to the contrary. "Commerce", which had previously been interpreted in the same way one might interpret "trade", as in bulk transactions, had to be construed into a far broader term, indicating "any possible economic transaction", and "among", as in "among the several states" had to be construed to mean "within any state", despite, again, ~100+ years of contrary guidance, much of which is also codified by founder intent.
Common Sense, the Federalist Papers and even Hamilton's (the more expansionist founder of the day) papers all collect to codify the intent of the day that trade regulatory authority should be non-interventionist, and act as a bulwark against trade exploitation -- you see, in the day, the common maliase of organized trade was the lack of a central authority to settle extra-state disputes. I could order a truckload of ale from a manufacturer in Virginia, have it shipped to Maryland, and then simply refuse to pay. The state courts of Maryland would be beholden to me, as a local business, so the Virginian would not get a fair trial in Maryland, and vice versa.
The power "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States" was expressly solicited as protection from mass exploitation in commerce.
> I just don't understand how a human being who thinks as much as you apparently do on this topic can write so little about it when asked explicitly to elaborate.
For the same reason I won't expound further on the other points, because I believe you're intractable on the subject. I haven't made attempts to impugn your character, or called you names, and it genuinely confuses me that you think resorting to such tactics improves _your_ position.
Because I believe you are unswayable, I only correct this point here in the event that some unfortunate reader might stumble upon your points, and actually believe that the Commerce clause has the intent that you suggest. It doesn't frankly, and your assertion that it does exposes more than a single fault in your logic, rather, it exposes the very foundation upon which your logic is predicated. You've illustrated an ignorance of several of the core legal principles upon which the Constitution relies, and dismissed them in favor of false equivalency and name-calling, while accusing me of failing to make the best form of the argument.
Now, with that out of the way, I may later return to respond to the other points on which you're factually incorrect, but I will not engage you further in any other regard.
Again, My sincere apologies to anyone on HN who might be reading this tripe.
> False equivalency. What you said was, in fact:
That's not a false equivalency, it's an actual equivalency. In your example, you go on to mention the 18th amendment, which is part of the constitution, and is therefore constitutional. And it is. But so is the 21st amendment.
> blah blah blah judicial precedence (you say it a bunch)
You missed this concept entirely. In no way does judicial precedence rewrite the Constitution whatsoever. It provides an interpretation of the Constitution, as that's the formal function of the judicial branch - to judge the laws of the land. Crazy, I know, but you don't say "judicial precedence has repealed law x y and z". That's not how the term is used, and so no, judicial precedence has not repealed the 18th amendment. No one says that, as that's not how the term is used.
Furthermore, you go on to mention the time in which a law was passed. That has absolutely nothing to do with judicial precedence whatsoever. Judicial precedence is when a judge sets a standard for how a law is interpreted. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the novelty of the law. So, this is not true:
> The Commerce Clause, on those grounds, cannot infringe either states' rights or any of the amendments enumerated within the Bill of Rights, as each were ratified into the Constitution ex post facto which, under judicial precedence, prohibits its effect being interpreted as you've stated.
It's actually kind of laughable that you think this is true, because of your massive beef with the PATRIOT act. Weren't you just saying how unconstitutional the PATRIOT act is, and how it steps on all kinds of other laws?
You're not even internally consistent.
> For the same reason I won't expound further on the other points, because I believe you're intractable on the subject.
It's fairly ironic you say that, given how similarly I feel towards you. I'm fairly certain you've built up a bubble of ignorance, and anyone who challenges that bubble is, well, treated as you've been treating me. You pretend like I've been insulting your character (I don't know you character, so that's literally impossible). The little I've been able to discern about you has been based on my observations of what you've been writing, and how offended you get when I've challenged your opinion.
It will be readily apparent to any poor soul who decides to read your text how little you know of the topic at hand, and this is not what you call an "insult". It's an observation. You think the commerce clause has been rendered moot by other constitutional amendments, you think the Federalist Papers are worth reading beyond their historical significance, you think "judicial precedence" is when new laws supersede (the word I suspect you're looking for in the first place) old, and you get super offended on the Internet over what amounts to normal conversation.
But please, we'll continue this until you tire, because I'm going to break your bubble of ignorance - I'm determined to. I want you to have to come to terms with the fact that you don't actually know very much on this topic, and to admit that you aren't nearly educated enough to say what's wrong with this country.
We'll start simple - what is it exactly you think I'm intractable on? I suspect you haven't the faintest idea anymore, if you ever actually did understand my viewpoint (again, this is an observation and not an insult - I can't believe I have to label these things for you).
> That's not a false equivalency, it's an actual equivalency.
Wrong again. "This interpretation of this part of the Constitution" != "The Constitution is Constitutional". It isn't true generally, it isn't true practically, and it definitely is not true in this instance. Beyond that, the deliberate misconstruing of its meaning, a meaning for which we have clear precedent and case law, is simply farcical. You are wrong here, I've explained why, and your refusal to accept that isn't a rebuttal.
> In no way does judicial precedence rewrite the Constitution whatsoever.
Yes, it does. Ratifications to the Constitution, and in fact any contract, defer in authority to the more recent amendment wherever terms are equally asserted. The term for it is "leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant", which states, as I asserted, that subsequent laws repeal predecessors that disagree with them. The recency of precedent matters, whether you care to accede that it does or not.
> It's actually kind of laughable that you think this is true, because of your massive beef with the PATRIOT act. Weren't you just saying how unconstitutional the PATRIOT act is, and how it steps on all kinds of other laws?
I assume the point you're making here is that I'm being inconsistent by asserting that recency reigns supreme, so the PATRIOT act, being newer than the Constitution, should be most current legal interpretation? Because that is easily falsifiable.
16 American Jurisprudence 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256 states the following:
A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law
cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute
runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.
No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.
Since the passage of the 21st amendment, Congress cannot pass a law that prohibits the sale or transport of intoxicating liquors, because it would be unconstitutional. The most recent stance, in the Constitution, states that the sale and/or transport of liquor is allowed, so if Congress were to pass a law prohibiting that, it would be void. It would not, under Constitution scrutiny, _even be a law at all_, despite it being on the books and in the Congressional register. No citizen would be obligated to uphold it, no police bound to uphold it, no courts, etc.For this reason, where the PATRIOT act infringes the Constitution, it is null, void. The language comprising the PATRIOT act, specifically as referring to the 'secret lists' that lack oversight have been found unconstitutional on no less than two occasions, and predecessors to the PATRIOT act were struck down on grounds of unconstitutionality. Regardless, Congress passed it again, with minor tweaks to confuse the issue, which was found unconstitutional as well, for which the mitigation was the insertion of the FISA court, to provide oversight, which is currently what's being challenged in various places as well.
If the PATRIOT act wishes to supersede portions of the Constitution, there's a Constitutionally prescribed process for that, and it's ratification. The process of ratification is not the same as simply "passing a new law" through Congress, but I'll leave the procedure as an exercise for you to Google, as it isn't terribly relevant to this discussion.
> You pretend like I've been insulting your character
> you're not in power, and that scares you.
> you're full of shit and don't know what you're talking about
> I might just have to accept people like you exist, but are in no way capable of impacting me
> you come up with these crackpot, "The US government is out of control!" theories to help sleep at night
> it's just sad that someone like you can have even an infinitesimally small sway in how this country is run
Those are character evaluations, that you claim not to be doing. Well, actually, they're character judgements, and one of them is a self-affirmation of your own intractability, which is something you're apparently trying to push onto me.
> I want you to have to come to terms with the fact that you don't actually know very much on this topic
You have no idea how much I know on the subject. As every counter you've offered is literally riddled with falsifiability, I don't know how you can continue to make the assertion that I'm under informed here. Regardless, I don't wish to impugn your character as baselessly as you have mine, so I demur, but saying things like "[when a law was enacted] has absolutely nothing to do with judicial precedence whatsoever" and then expect one to take you seriously as you insult their intelligence... it's a bit of a tough sell.
> and how offended you get when I've challenged your opinion.
I'm not offended that you've challenged my opinions. You really haven't. To suggest that you've challenged my opinions is to suggest that by asserting that 2+2=42, you've challenged math.
As for answering your questions, I confess, I really don't desire to continue this conversation any further, and haven't for some time. This thread is a disgrace to HN, as has been both of our conduct. I've tried, and failed, to conduct the argument civilly. I'll concede that if you're trolling, as I suspect, you've won. I've been trolled into violating my own stop-loss on three separate occasions, but of course, there's an XKCD for that, and I'm as human as the next guy who argues on the internet.
First, you start by presupposing I even said "This interpretation of this part of the Constitution", which isn't actually what I said at all. Had I actually written something like that, you'd be correct, but I didn't. The disagreement we're having revolves around that fact, but instead of actually arguing the point, you simply assumed it to be what you said, and then continued to draw conclusions. Every conclusion you've made on that topic after you presupposed what I said as something I didn't actually say is therefore incorrect. If you want to argue, then the point you'd be arguing is whether or not I said "This interpretation of this part of the Constitution". The rest of your argument hinges on it, and I don't believe I said that at all.
Then, you begin talking about "judicial precedence". I don't think you know what this phrase means, because you keep using it interchangeably with the word "law". A judicial precedence is, as far as these [0][1][2][3][4] sources tell me, is more or less when a judge hands down a ruling on a section of law that stands as a guideline for future judges to rule against that law. This is not, as you keep saying, a "rewriting" of any kind of law - constitutional or otherwise. This topic has nothing whatsoever to do with the ratification of constitutional amendments. A ruling may interpret a particular part of a law or the Constitution in a certain way, but it doesn't literally or figuratively "rewrite" said law. Furthermore, judicial precedence can change over time, or be superseded by a higher court's ruling. THIS is where time matters, not in the laws as written themselves.
Which brings me to my third point, your misunderstanding of how laws are written. There aren't "revisions" of laws, where you have to know which law was passed when. There is one set of laws. This set of laws gets changed over time - rewritten, modified, redacted, etc. There is, at any given time, only one body of text that constitutes federal law[5], and one body of text that constitutes state law[6]. Again, when a law is appended to these bodies of text, this has nothing to do with how or when rulings on these laws are passed down. When a law is passed, and when it's first ruled on (setting precedence, as in judicial precedence), are completely irrelevant.
Then you start getting confused, and go on a bit of a rant. You're in the middle of talking about judicial precedence, and you seem to kind of mold that in with Jurisprudence, which deals with the constitutionality of laws. It seems to me you think they're related? They're not, just to be clear. You also don't seem clear on what happens to a law when it's found unconstitutional. You say, "It would not even be a law at all" which isn't true. It'd be a law. Just an unconstitutional one, at least until a higher court rules, or another court of equal level rules differently.
And then we get to the part of the comment where you act like my observations are without cause or justification.
Here's the thing - you seem to believe, with a high (very high) level of certainty, that you're educated on this topic. It's that very certainty that undermines your credibility, however. People who are actually educated on the topic of constitutional law don't have your confidence. It's not a very consensus-oriented topic, even among experts. I think you know where I'm going with this, but in case you don't, here are some links: [7][8][9]. Suffice it to say, you share all the hallmarks of a fanatic. And I know you think this is a personal attack, and not relevant, but I just urge you to do more than you usually do for this specific belief.
[0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent
[1] - http://www.ask.com/question/what-is-meant-by-judicial-precedence
[2] - http://www.ask.com/question/what-is-judicial-precedent
[3] - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Judicial+precedent
[4] - http://nuweb2.northumbria.ac.uk/bedemo/Sources_of_English_Law/page_10.htm
[5] - http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml
[6] - http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm
[7] - http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/people-are-overly-confident-in-their-own-knowledge-despite-errors.html
[8] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
[9] - http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/10/19/when-in-doubt-shout-why-shaking-someones-beliefs-turns-them-into-stronger-advocates/
Edit: I can't reply any further (no 'reply' message appears), but it genuinely frightens me that you've written laws. I'm going to live on the assumption that you've just lied about that.> The Interstate Commerce Clause is part of the Constitution, so any usage of it is by definition constitutional.
The second quoted statement there is an interpretation of a part of the Constitution. "Any usage" of a part of the Constitution is not necessarily Constitutional. The Commerce Clause has a meaning, but we should be able to agree that "any usage" of the text is not necessarily valid. I could use the text to suggest that the federal government, for example, has authority over interstate that are not in the United States. I could apply the law to apply to any solid state hard drives that happen to be on an interstate by contorting the statement "among the several states."
So, am I wrong in suggesting that your interpretation is an interpretation? Am I wrong in suggesting that the Commerce Clause is part of the Constitution?
That you later change the statement to the broader "The Constitution is Constitutional" is a false dichotomy. The narrower does not agree with the broad, despite your suggestion that they are equal. They are not.
> I don't think you know what this phrase means, because you keep using it interchangeably with the word "law"
No, I'm not. I am admittedly watering it down for your benefit though.
> A judicial precedence is, as far as these \sources tell me, is more or less when a judge hands down a ruling on a section of law that stands as a guideline for future judges to rule against that law.
That is correct, but far from complete.
> This is not, as you keep saying, a "rewriting" of any kind of law - constitutional or otherwise.
That is incorrect, and I've already explained how, but I'll expound. The federal register lists every law on the books, whether valid or invalid, constitutional or unconstitutional. The register, as a result, has many contradictory laws, and statutory interpretation must be used to divine which has bearing over which ones do not. A first principal of statutory interpretation is leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant, which uses recency as the proverbial 'tie-breaker' against otherwise co-equal provisions. The newer law invalidates the older one. I'll concede that it does not in fact rewrite it, in the sense that the original law is not physically altered, but for all practical purposes, it loses any gravity in lieu of the newer, and is considered all but re-written, invalidated, nulled, or whatever way you'd like to put it that doesn't require further arguing of semantics.
> This topic has nothing whatsoever to do with the ratification of constitutional amendments.
The applicability of the Commerce Clause toward the constraint of the Bill of Rights has everything to do with the ratification of Constitutional amendments. On what grounds do you suggest that they do not?
> Furthermore, judicial precedence can change over time, or be superseded by a higher court's ruling.
This is correct.
> THIS is where time matters, not in the laws as written themselves.
This is incorrect. If a law is passed on Tuesday that allows for the theft of sandwiches, and a law is passed on Wednesday that prohibits the theft of sandwiches, the theft of sandwiches is illegal. I don't know why this concept is so baffling to you, but this is established law. The latter may not specifically repeal the former, though it does supersede it. The result is that there would be two laws in the register, one allowing for the theft of sandwiches, and the other disallowing the theft of sandwiches. Only one of those laws has any teeth. I'll leave is as an exercise to the reader over which one it is.
> Which brings me to my third point, your misunderstanding of how laws are written.
While not attempting to invoke deference, I have authored or co-authored parts of laws and amendments that have been enacted within the state of Maryland, and have been involved (though as more of a support role than active) in research and construction of legal arguments successfully employed in the MD circuit courts, the MD Supreme Court, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court.
I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject, but this really isn't as complicated as you're making it out to be. That I've had to explain the concept of implied repeal no less than three times tells me that you're not arguing from a solid foundation. Saying it doesn't exist doesn't mean that it doesn't.
> Here's the thing - you seem to believe, with a high (very high) level of certainty, that you're educated on this topic.
Well, by comparison, I can speak with a high (very high) degree of certainty that you are wrong.
You say things like 'time has no bearing on precedent', which is patently, provably false. You say things like 'there aren't "revisions" of laws' as easily as saying that trees don't have leaves. You go on to say that because those statements are true, that they have no bearing on the ratification of the Constitution, which is, again, provably false; That exact argument has been made before the Supreme Court, and won. In short, if I'm wrong, then so is every judge and justice.
You assert that Congress can pass a law that supersedes the Constitution, and while, as a practical matter, I concede that in practice they often do, and then you misconstrue the timeliness of judicial preference to assert that any law that Congress passes supersedes the Constitution because it's more recent.
That really, really isn't how it works, and despite how well-written and confidently stated your arguments are, they are built upon a foundation of exactly nothing. It's like we're writing an application here but refusing to accept that 'scope' exists, or that it has any bearing on whether a variable is available within a given method.
You go on to assert that I'm intractable, despite a demonstrable history of acknowledging when I'm wrong. You go on to assert that you're not intractable, despite having previously admitted to being so. This argument is entirely fruitless, and I honestly can't imagine how continuing it isn't just feeding the trolls, so if your intent is to keep dragging me back in, which I admit that I'm vulnerable to, you'll have to try quite a bit harder next time.
First they came for the terrorists, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a terrorist.
Then they came for the enemy combatants, and I didn't speak because I wasn't an enemy combatant.
Then they came for the traitors, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a traitor.
? I'm just trying to see which part of this is not 200+ years old. Was there ever a time in the history of the US where the US government wasn't "coming" for terrorists, enemy combatants, and traitors? If that's the case, then how do you build a bridge from "terrorists" to "random law-abiding citizen", which is the point of the poem.There were a couple hundred years in our nation's history where we weren't drone striking American citizens without due process for crimes they might have committed in the future.
That should probably be in there somewhere.
See: Trail of Tears, Civil War, and many, many, many other instances where the US government sponsored the killing of "Americans" (citizenship hasn't always been this cut/dry thing it is today).
A) drone strikes are just a means to an end, the end being "attack our enemies".
B) The people being attacked are classified as "enemy combatants". Do you realize what this means, as far as a "due process" conversation goes? We're not about to start trying enemy soldiers on the battlefield for breaking laws they're not even bound by (our laws). It's a perfectly reasonable conversation to talk about whether or not the people being attacked are actually "enemy combatants", but can we have that conversation, instead of you just ignoring the implications of what you're saying?
It's immensely hard to talk to people who speak in your terms, do you know that? Your cause is hurt by this behavior, not helped. If someone like me can't stand it, just imagine the feelings of someone in actual power, capable of doing something about it.
Regardless, the protocol for declaring someone enemy combatant should not be opaque to all but the executive branch. I don't necessarily have a problem with our government interceding to prevent a terrorist attack, but the taking of a life that might be innocent should be more informed than just adding a name to a list -- we've seen the efficacy of that with the No Fly List, where someone whose name was only similar to an actual terrorist was disallowed the ability to fly (to hilarious results).
The ability of a single person to add someone's name to a kill list that will be carried out with zero Congressional oversight is a cessation of ultimate power to the Executive Branch. There is simply no arguing that point whatsoever. The only 'check' on that power is that we trust the Executive to be forthright. Perhaps that's good enough for the current administration, perhaps it isn't, but it certainly bodes poorly for the future.
> If someone like me can't stand it, just imagine the feelings of someone in actual power, capable of doing something about it.
I interact with people in power, and demagoguery is the norm, even behind closed doors. That I happen to actually believe the points that I'm making is probably the only distinction between what I'm saying here and the words of the average politician.
That you, in particular, find it infuriating isn't terribly surprising. Having looked through your comment profile, the pattern I've noticed isn't one terribly indicative of someone tolerant or especially well-mannered.
In the interest of community preservation, I'm happy to just agree to disagree, and suggest that we should discontinue further conversation.
According to the Constitution, that's how it works. Congress can pass laws to require the executive branch pass these lists through congress, but they haven't, so the executive branch doesn't have to. That's how the Constitution was designed.
Want to change it? Petition your congressman/woman.
The problem with the writing style where only the last line brings the change in mood is that a lot of people don't read everything.
The direct call to action is always a better approach.
Don't make the text full with wrong arguments and end it with "but." Just write the good arguments.
You might not directly see the good that you do, but you would be doing a significant amount of good! That tor node will push a lot of freedom bytes, and that bridge will help circumvent Iranian, Syrian and Chinese censorship.
I think this is a lie (but I share your feelings). All the oppression is driven by the greed. Me myself and I is the norm. Not only in politics but a lot of people are turning to the believe that the world is all about self.
The selfish world doesn't care about others. But I can tell you from my own experience that if you care about others (everyone included without exception) people will change little by little.
Some things I have to remind myself all the time to achieve this:
* Separate what people do from who they are
* First blame yourself then others
* Don't put yourself above others
People at the top are standing on the foundation of people at the bottom. I think both the people at the top and the bottom don't realize this all the time. This means that the top position is as strong as its foundation. And that the foundation can change what's happening at the top.A small spark can cause an explosion.
The idea being that if you place frogs in a pool of water and raise the water temperature ever so slowly, the frogs will never notice that they are eventually being boiled alive, so they'll relax in the boiling water with complacency, as they are slowly cooked to death.
Hey, you arrogant ass. You're speaking for yourself. You may not care about them, but some of us do. Some of us are very angry at all the things you listed, and some of us try to do things about it. So while you're complacent, and you're okay with politicians lying to your sad little face, I strongly resent you projecting that same complacency onto me.
"The records feed a vast database that stores information about the locations of at least hundreds of millions of devices, ..."
Why are there only 5 billion geolocation records ingested daily? Using a conservative estimate of 200 million devices, that yields an average daily ingestion rate of 25 records for each device. This seems really low.
It sounds like NSA may be culling the data aggressively, or the definition of a record may constitute more than just a single polling event. Perhaps both.
Keep in mind that the Bluffdale, Utah facility was not operational at the time the documents referenced in the article were created. It's possible ingestion of gelocation data has since ramped up.
Dear US citizens, can we also stop being surprised that we are doing such things? We have a long history of doing this.
Better change your bus route if you notice the same terrorist rides the same bus as you every day.
I think putting in Airplane Mode should be a good idea.
And then you still would have to trust this Airplane Mode.
Honestly, I have absolutely no idea what is happening in my phone. Is it maybe still collecting data while it is in Airplane Mode and sending it somewhere once it is set back to regular mode? Or is it even sending data all the time, because the NSA knows that never a single plane has crashed because of active cellphones? Probably some smart people out there are checking their phone's internals and activities more than I do...
Easier said than done. Unfortunately.
Fascists gonna fash.
Voice:
I am on the telephone with you. My actual voice is the data. Is the digitization of my voice not metadata? After all, natural voice =/= digitized voice. So it seems that digitized voice could be, to the NSA, metadata and therefore subject to capture.
I know the NSA has software/hardware to translate digitized voice to text. Suppose all phone conversations are converted to text. Then is that text therefore not data but metadata? Once again, it seems that the text of all phone conversations could be, to the NSA, metadata and therefore subject to capture.
Fax:
I send a fax to you. What's on the sheet of paper is data. But is the digitized and compressed sequence of bits sent to you not metadata? It certainly is not the same as the original data. So it seems that the digitized fax could be, to the NSA, metadata and therefore subject to capture.
Still, were that not so, the NSA has OCR that can read handwritten or typed text from a fax and convert it to text. Is the converted text not metadata? It is certainly different from the original data. So it seems that the converted text from the fax could be, to the NSA, metadata and therefore subject to capture.
E-mail:
I e-mail you. The text I see before me is data. Once I press the send key, it is compressed through various software/hardware for rapid transmission as it passes over the TCP/IP/phone network. Is not that compressed text also metadata? Therefore it seems that e-mail content could be, to the NSA, metadata and therefore subject to capture.
IOW once data is processed through any transformation whatsoever then it could be defined as "metadata". Again I don't know NSA's exact definition (used internally) of what metadata is. There may be many different definitions. But since NSA's representatives raised the use of the term w/o defining it (and then used the metaphor of a library to draw questioners off track) I believe that they should be questioned again about precisely what "metadata" means when and where. Furthermore the question of what precisely the NSA captures should be driven to ground thoroughly.
Personal belief:
NSA considers the product of any transformation of data to be metadata. The NSA captures all voice, fax, e-mail, chat, sms, etc. and maintains it in digitized form. Regardless of origin, all communications end up in text format (with pointers back to the original digitized form) which is then subjected to semantic/content analysis (scanning for naughty words), and optionally (under control of an analyst) to social network analysis and AI software that analyzes events, objects, actors, their intentions, and possible variations in interpretation of the text.
But the definitions you've put forth are completely off target, with respect to the layman's ordinary, rational concept of metadata. Conceptually, metadata forms a map of relationships between actual examples of data, in the sense that the wires between the lightbulbs are the metadata, while the lightbulbs are the data. Your hypothesis is that someone might propose that only the light emitted from the bulb is the data, and that all other phenomena beyond that are the metadata, so, if you take a picture of the lightbulb while it's switched on, and mark the time, the timestamped photo is the metadata, only because it recorded measurements of the intensity of the photons emanating from the bulb, and did not capture and retain the actual photons themselves (all else, aside from the photons being fair game). No one in their right mind would ever build such an absurd mental model.
The reality is that anyone proposing concepts like the ones you mention, is simply lying through their teeth. Thus, why would you want anyone like that to speak a single word?
If that's their version of the truth, and they seriously believe that's a representation of honesty, it's not worth listening to them.
If they know it's a lie and try to sell the lie anyway, it's not worth listening to them.
If they know what the reality is, but lie and provide the rational definition of metadata, regardless of how inaccurately it aligns with the truth, it's not worth listening to them.
The only thing you'd gain from hearing them speak to their belief of how metadata is defined, would be if you compare what they say to the actually evidence that proves the reality, and assess how warped they are, and how much they lied.
The NSA's library metaphor was well-chosen: loose enough to possibly explain but complex enough to mislead. It derailed the conversation.
But I see no utility in the light bulb metaphor you present, except possibly to mislead as most metaphors can do. I would never use it in this context.
The point is to eliminate the metaphors. "Just the facts, ma'am." as Dragnet's Sgt. Friday (didn't exactly) always says.
"why would you want anyone like that to speak a single word?"
To find the truth. If not, to reveal those who lie under oath. To eliminate the metaphors and replace them with facts.
NSA Director Keith Alexander disclosed in Senate testimony in October that the NSA had run a pilot project in 2010 and 2011 to collect “samples” of U.S. cellphone location data. The data collected were never available for intelligence analysis purposes, and the project was discontinued because it had no “operational value,” he said.
Alexander allowed that a broader collection of such data “may be something that is a future requirement for the country, but it is not right now.”
And for all this, I'm not going to lie--that'd be a fun dataset to hack on.
And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom.
Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences.
There is no such standard for computer people. It still baffles me that people would voluntarily work at implementing something like PRISM - I would literally quit my job over something like this; similar considerations have popped up in the research I do for my Masters thesis - but ethics is definitely something we would talk more about.
I don't know whether you're aware of this or not, but you just described a famous experiment which essentially arrived at the same conclusion. It's worth a read for those not familiar with it.
Zimbardo has stated that he is still pained at the memories of the Stanford prison study, which had to be aborted prematurely because the vile characteristics it exposed in normal, healthy participants was going out of control. He reluctantly revisited the study in detail because he saw striking parallels to the torture and humiliation in the Abu Ghraib prison under US occupation. While he's at it he also reviews much other research into the psychology of authoritarianism, obedience, dehumanization and other facets of social psychology that add up to what may very reasonably be called Evil.
I might add that organizations like the CIA are well aware of these principles, and appears to have been working on ways of weaponizing them. It is my opinion that they are using them to corrupt individuals and whole social environments when that suits their ends. In fact, in spite of "The Lucifer Effect" being a fascinating read from beginning to end, one of the parts I found most interesting was the evidence indicating that US intelligence actively created the psychological conditions for the abuses at Abu Ghraib.
Highly recommended reading, and very relevant for much of the potential consequences of mass surveillance.
This interpretation isn't really any less disturbing, since it suggests that people will commit atrocities and simultaneously believe that they are doing the right thing. Perhaps it also says something about the general public's trust of, not necessarily authority figures, but rather scientists.
Reading up on this has been on my back-burner for a while, this interpretation might be well considered and discarded, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
I believe this is related: http://www.is.wayne.edu/MNISSANI/PAGEPUB/Milgram.htm
Perhaps the difference is if the doctors/nurses/vendors think that they can get away with it, not attracting the public's attention.
Now if we could get some prominent figures in tech with some authority to get more involved in these matters, but no - they're all a bit too comfortable in their well-paid, US-based jobs to risk anything.
PRISM people thought they were doing right. All NSA - based on all the official and unofficial responses - think they are doing right. That they help building a safer America. That they have to sacrifice privacy for safety. Etc, etc.
I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good.
Evil like in the movies doesn't exist. In the real-world evil is simply a lack of perspective (some would call it empathy instead).
No one ever wakes up and decides they want to be a villain. They always have some sort of logic that rationalizes their actions as being reasonable if not outright good. The more they act on that lack of perspective the greater the evil they perpetrate.
Some select quotes (minor spoiler alert):
"There is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan."
"It's all the same machine, right? The Pentagon, multinational corporations, the police. If you do one little job, you build a widget in Saskatoon, and the next thing you know, it's two miles under the desert, the essential component of a death machine."
Quentin: But why put people in it?
Worth: Because it's here. You have to use it, or you admit that it's pointless.
Quentin: But it is pointless.
Worth: Quentin... that's my point.
DIN_FIV
Escape To Reality
Track #3 - "Conspiracy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2ktuDmEAv8I worked with a sociopath in the past and have studied it in literature, and a sociopath by definition sees meeting their own needs as a priority. Regardless of the effect on those around them.
A sociopath is willing to inflict suffering on others for even minor gains of their own. Sociopaths seek out high-power positions and often thrive in them, and those working with them often suffer as a consequence.
Taking a step back, as far as I can see, a sociopath is someone who (either by choice or by nature) prioritises certain social drives over other social drives. The drives to be empathic and obey social expectations, norms and rules get ignored. However, the drives for status, money and power are prioritised above all others. These drives are still social in nature. They don't actually convey a fundamental biological advantage.
I personally choose to aim to be a warm and caring human being, and, as a consequence of that, I have a really great relationship with my girlfriend. When we have kids, our kids will grow up in a loving supportive environment and so will have a good chance of growing up strong and well balanced. Being a sociopath would probably get me more material possessions, but I would have had to settle for an emotionally weaker partner (who I could dominate) and I would end up with messed up kids with a lower chance of success and survival.
From my own personal experience, people who fit the sociopathic archetype aren't really like evil villains. They're more like computer game addicts, fixated on goals that don't bring them happiness, and that get in the way of forming genuine connections with other human beings. I can see why people who are the victims of their behaviour characterise it as selfish, because they see the world as a competition for money, status and power and they think they are losing out. However, that competition is just a game, and the grand prize is not happiness.
Although I find these points interesting, it does seem to me like this leads us into the age-old philosophy discussion on ethics. It seems like ethics can be argued to be based on intention, effect, something else, or all. I have read about sociopaths that are experienced by others as good people. However, a sociopath seem to have a stunted emotional life and I am sure this disability will always have numerous subtle negative effects on people that have an emotional relationship with them (e.g wife, kids, friends).
This is what I consider evil, and I think it's important to separate it from people who think what they are doing is ok. I.e. "Someone else would have done it anyways", a thief who steals from a bank because "they have insurance" or "they are rich assholes who don't deserve it", or a dictator who tries to do what he thinks is best for the country even though his policies are bad.
Tou keep saying that, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.
Evil in this case is an aggregation of actions by many parties, not individuals and is rarely committed by the tool makers. However, it's always justified by the perpetrators.
Yep. Of course if that engineer had perspective he would have to wonder if there was more to the story than just what he was being shown. It is easy to doubt the people we already think are wrong, the hard thing is to doubt the people we agree with.
I would add that I think much of the material Ed Snowden released, to the extent that it shows personal expressions, to me points more to these people viewing the Intelligence organization as the new "we", and /everybody/ outside, US citizen or not, as a bit less than fully human. That cheeky smiley on the sketches detailing how they broke Google's SSL? "TOR Stinks" and similar flippant expressions in the documents about attacking the integrity of TOR? And so on. To me that isn't the look of someone who thinks they're making difficult, serious choices to protect the greater good. It's the look of someone who thinks they're better than everyone else out there and they can do whatever they want, including having "a little fun" toying with those other inferior creatures, because they think no one can touch them. That, I think, is the general mindset we're dealing with. Allow for a fair deal of individual variation of course.
You don't need an ethical guidebook to consider the implications of the work you're doing. I don't think lack of explicit instructions is an excuse. I don't want to invoke Godwin just yet...but suffice to say, a lot of bad things have been done in the name of good. And there were people in the loop who had the ability to see what was going on.
And so they walk a famously paved road.
ACM Code of Ethics: http://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics
So, the standards exist but people choose to ignore them. Which, I guess since you're not forced to be a member of either professional society as a "computer person", isn't all that unreasonable. But personal ethics should win out in these situations without someone else having to tell you that it's wrong.
1.7 Respect the privacy of others. ..
User data observed during the normal duties of system operation and maintenance must be treated with strictest confidentiality, except in cases where it is evidence for the violation of law, organizational regulations, or this Code. In these cases, the nature or contents of that information must be disclosed only to proper authorities.
That specifically allows the kind of work done by PRISM.
2.7 Improve public understanding of computing and its consequences.
Computing professionals have a responsibility to share technical knowledge with the public by encouraging understanding of computing, including the impacts of computer systems and their limitations. This imperative implies an obligation to counter any false views related to computing.
3.1 Articulate social responsibilities of members of an organizational unit and encourage full acceptance of those responsibilities.
Because organizations of all kinds have impacts on the public, they must accept responsibilities to society. Organizational procedures and attitudes oriented toward quality and the welfare of society will reduce harm to members of the public, thereby serving public interest and fulfilling social responsibility. Therefore,organizational leaders must encourage full participation in meeting social responsibilities as well as quality performance.
Or number one on IEEE?
1. to accept responsibility in making decisions consistent with the safety, health, and welfare of the public, and to disclose promptly factors that might endanger the public or the environment;
Given, what's "best for the public" is up for debate (at least according to the people doing the collecting).
That does not make our decisions inconsequential. And yes, we should talk a lot more about ethics in compsci courses.
As for people who work on things like PRISM, it often happen in small steps, one ethical shade of gray at a time. When you get to a PRISM, your worldview is so completely distorted, you think it's a natural thing to do.
It's almost like not everyone in the world shares your political views on privacy rights...
Seriously, you are baffled by this? The majority of the population doesn't value privacy at all.
Thank you. I was going to make the same point, you've done it well.
Moreover: this is why the Snowden, PRISM, NSA/FBI, surveillance, privacy, and other stories matter on HN.
Many of those working for startups are contributing directly (and occasionally indirectly) to the datastreams which are being harvested. I've never felt comfortable with Facebook and the ethics of its leadership, and I've been increasingly concerned about Google (I consider it to have lost rather than sold its soul). Both are far too actively carrying the NSA's water (as I've pointedly told Google multiple times).
How to answer the challenge ... I really don't know, I'm at a loss here.
Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see where your dissatisfaction is coming from.
By creating an infrastructure in which the data are collected, centralized, individually identified, unencrypted, and specifically associated with vast trails of other nominally unassociated online information (search history, logins to other sites, analytics on other sites, etc.).
This is in the sense of Lawrence Lessig's Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace. The architectures of Facebook, Google, and other social networks, advertising networks, mobile phone systems, phone apps, PC-based snooping (inclusive of Microsoft Windows, OS X, Linux, Android, and other systems), etc., etc.
These systems are designed in ways which maximize their utility to a national surveillance network, despite alternative architectures being available. As an example of alternatives, Twitter and Reddit, at the very least, don't demand / promote "real names", or (mostly) track information across third-party sites, at least not to the extent Facebook and Google are doing.
"Treadstone! Ahh yes, Treadstone. Treadstone was a pilot project to <blah blah blah>. It's all but decomissioned at this point."
What they provide is an f.lux experience, with a +1 magnification. their optics are quite clear, but no where near the marketing hype they claim.
When I compared a $10 pair of sunglasses to a pair of +$100 Oakley's I was like wowzered by the optics. It actually provided me with better contrast across the range, in all but rainy weather.
Always wanted to try one out after i saw that movie. So one day I got a tax benefit and could get them for free. They shipped out the wrong model first time, so I got two.
They seemed really overpriced to me, but do help. Keep them on long enough and you'll see blue. I had clear benefits when for a year long I was doing online poker zombie shifts. But on one without a frame, the legs came of fairly easily. They were plastic and glued into the glasses. I still have to re-glue them, but never bothered. I might fix them and give them another go.
But for $100+ I'm getting a solid yet lightweight frame from Oakley, and a crappy plastic frame holding not-so-impressive optics together.
Other differences that come to mind: Google has yet to kill people with drones or send people to torture prisons in Egypt.
It's a big government.
"Just doing my job" has been deprecated in 1945. For a reason, and finding out why the hard way is considered harmful.
Even in 21st century America, we continue to fool ourselves, thinking that somehow soldiers can be noble, heroes even, all the while being engaged something that is immoral.
With an all-volunteer army though? No way, it is on them as much as it is on anybody. I don't care if they joined for the GI Bill (doing it for the [college] money is a pretty fucking flimsy ethical justification), I don't care if they joined the reserves before war broke out for the GI Bill (agreeing to the possibility of a war, before you know the circumstances of that war, for the [college] money, is still a flimsy argument).
The "support the troops [bring them home]" stuff seems like it is likely backlash against the derision that we gave Vietnam veterans, but it should be re-evaluated because the situations are not equivalent.
I was going to detail this as a possible excuse - but considering this reasoning and the consequences has made me reconsider: You've made a bad choice [morally / ethically]. Now you have to live with the consequences.
Can be seen as a tough stance, but then again, so's life. Didn't really mean to fall of that cliff? Oh, here's your life back again.
Still, I don't hate people who join or anything... call it a very strong disapprove. However I do find it hard to associate with people who try to assure me that they're one of the good ones because "Oh, I'm not really the patriotic type, I just joined so I could go to college" line. That impresses me far less than "I joined [for my country|it was the right thing to do|for the innocent civilians over there|war is a necessary evil|I was young and naive when the recruiter came to my school|911 HUURAH!]". I don't believe people when they say the former, but if I did, I don't think I could consider them anything but mercenaries.
Here is a combat veteran discussing what it is actually like. This sentiment is basically echoed among the friends that I have who have served in the military.
http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/03/01/call-of-apathy-vi...
"No, I have told the whole truth in that, and only dead men can tell the truth in this world. It can be published after I am dead." -- Mark Twain
Noam Chomsky:
Anything that's totally vacuous and diverts, after all what does it mean to be in favor of .. suppose somebody asks, do you support the people in Iowa, can you say I support them or no I don't support them. It's not even a question it doesn't even mean anything. And that's the point of public relations slogans like support our troops is that they don't mean anything, they mean as much as whether you support the people in Iowa.
Of course there was an Issue -- the issue was do you support our policy but you don't want people to think about the issue that's the whole point of good propaganda, you want to create a slogan that nobody is gonna be against and I suppose everybody will be for because nobody knows what it means because it doesn't mean anything, but it's crucial value is it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something. Do you support our policy and that's the one you're not allowed to talk about.
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/199201--.htm
http://fixyt.com/watch?v=G7DdWmWUa_8
Incidentally, this passage is within a larger context of public relations. A while back I was looking at terms and phrases on Google's Ngram viewer and noted something really odd: "democracy" wasn't a term in broad use until World War I, with a second major uptick during WWII.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=democracy&year...
I noted that and didn't think much more of it for a few months until I ran across a reference to Edward Louis Berneys, father of modern public relations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays
Really interesting coot. Double nephew of Sigmund Freud (oh yeah: Berneys popularized Freud too -- and married advertising to psychology while he was at it), convinced women to smoke ("Torches of Freedom"), and though it's hard to believe it had to be sold, promoted bacon.
One of his first campaigns? A WWI "support the troops" message commissioned by the US government. To popularize democracy.
That's right: the principle American Value was brought to you as a marketing campaign.
(Ngram viewer is fascinating for studying the emergence / rise / fall in the popularity of words and phrases).
More on lies of diversion: https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/5zrCkbzR...
The nonsense message of American democracy is another one that's always bothered me, so it's enlightening to see how these are connected.
FWIW, despite all the propaganda and even our school history books, democracy never was a core value of America. There is virtually nothing democratic about the design of the federal government, and even those aspects that are democratic were nothing new at the time the Constitution was written. America was not a bold experiment in democracy. That was old hat: the Dutch were already doing it, and heck, the Greeks did it a couple thousand years earlier. What was a bold experiment, seemingly entirely forgotten in today's discourse on Capitol Hill, was a limited government that wielded only a small set of powers that were explicitly ceded to it by the people.
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it "nonsense", but it definitely wasn't emphasized prior to WWI. I'd have to do some more digging through history to see what issues were driving the nation prior to that. I do think that freedom and liberty were there. Initially it was just getting things off the ground and fighting off the Brits (1776, 1812), then westward expansion, then early industrialization, then slavery, them more industrialization.
By the time of WWI there'd been some big questions raised over equity and equality (railroads, robber barrons, oil trusts), and national cohesion was somewhat at stake, more so with the Great Depression and WWII.
My study of all of this is still pretty thin, but it's a fascinating period.
If you believe that the war is unjust, and you believe that it's the duty of a soldier (or any person) to refuse to perform immoral acts, then consistency dictates that you should condemn the soldiers fighting in those wars, not revere them.
I've spoken with a lot of Iraq war veterans. Every one of them has qualms with how the war was conducted, and many have doubts about the reasons for invading. But the things they have in common are an underlying desire to to "protect" their country in some sense, and the willingness to die for that cause.
There's plenty of room there for both disagreement and respect.
I have friends who are absolutist peacenik liberals, who thing that GWB should burn in hell for all eternity for inveigling us in Iraq, because of "war for oil", "Halliburton will destroy the country", etc. From the point of view of one of these people, there is no moral authority to wage the war; to them, it IS black and white. Yet these very same people utter the "support our heroic troops" mantra.
Given that someone is such an extremist in their opposition to the war, it's impossible to square that person's professed beliefs with their support of the soldiers waging that war.
That is, unless we're willing to discard the idea that all people are morally bound to refuse to execute immoral commands.
They may not have made the decision to start a war (that is on politicians), but they made the decision to participate.
"The CIA's Silent War in Pakistan"
http://content.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1900248,00.html
"CIA drone attacks in Pakistan are responsible for unlawful killings, some of which could amount to war crimes, Amnesty International says."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24618701
"CIA Drone Strike Kills Pakistan Taliban Head Before Talks"
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-03/cia-drone-strike-ki...
The division between "intelligence" and "operations" has been breached.
Does the CIA admit to even owning drones? Or are these Army operations run by the CIA?
The CIA's drone program is not secret, and hasn't been for some time.
From http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/363199/obama-plan-shift...:
"Despite their overlapping “orbits” in Yemen, the CIA and JSOC employ different surveillance equipment on their drone fleets. They also rely on separate and sometimes incompatible communications networks to transmit video feeds and assemble intelligence from multiple streams in the moments before a strike."
From http://killerapps.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/11/05/cia_pen...:
"Keeping the drones with the CIA also offers legal cover for drone strikes, former officials argued. By law, the military is not supposed to conduct hostile actions outside a declared war zone, although special forces do so on occasion acting at the CIA's behest."
Some other choice headlines on the site's homepage:
Birth-Control Battle - Liberals are the agressors
Chait-Crime: Stop assuming conservatives are racist
Corporations Are People: The idea goes back to the Founding.
The Return of the Queue: O'care: just like any other liberal program.
Five Food-Stamp Myths: Does the program even work?
The Test-Score Gap: Race and class are not to blame.
Not exactly a fantastic citation, I think you'll agree. In any event, your quote specifically refers to intelligence drones, not strike drones. I'm not actually 100% sure about this, but I'm guessing they're different, just based on the different payloads required to perform each activity. In any event, the CIA here isn't admitting to anything. It's an anonymous inside source. Right. Hyperconservative blog has high-level inside source in the intelligence community in a post-Snowden world. Got it.As for the second article, that's exactly what I'm saying. Special forces do so, "Acting at the CIA's behest". CIA provides intel, special forces conducts the operation. That's an important distinction.
If you're intent on nitpicking, then I think the likely answer to your question is that the CIA openly runs a large and mature weaponized drone program using vehicles that are outfitted by the CIA but owned (in a procurement sense) by the USAF, with the weapon triggers actually pulled (per law) by USAF service members.
If the CIA wanted to keep this program secret then they're doing a shitty job. For example, look up the things that Lean Panetta has said about his program over the last few years.
http://mccollum.house.gov/press-release/mccollum-amendment-f...
http://unmannedsystemscaucus.mckeon.house.gov/in-the-news/20...
http://unmannedsystemscaucus.mckeon.house.gov/afghanistan/20...
http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/pdf/04-23-13BergenTestimony....
More to the point: there's no denial that these programs are run by the CIA.
I'm pretty sure it is...
If Google deletes your comments on a YouTube video, it's not a violation of the 1st Amendment. If Google employees take a good, long look at your email or the documents you have in Drive, it's not a violation of the Fourth.
The Constitution only limits Google to the extent that it's the basis for the system of laws that do the limiting.
Not Google nor any other person is granted rights under the Constitution. Given the Natural Rights philosophy subscribed to by many of the founders, as described by John Locke and others, the rights of the people pre-exist, simply by virtue of their being people.
The Constitution comes later. It describes a set of enumerated powers that the people have decided to cede to the government that they're creating. The way you describe it is the other way around from this.
At face value, yes. But with the news that companies are tracking web users via browser fingerprints and other methods (even when users have "do not track" enabled), it seems that it is difficult to avoid being secretly tracked by corporations.
There are many commercial services offering lookups (google "HLR lookup")
and
> ...location data are obtained by methods “tuned to be looking outside the United States,”
Whew, I was getting worried, but now I'm sure we're safe and it's just for foreigners.