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Comment by morgante | Hacker News Reader

Wow, that's awesome. I only wish I had anywhere near that capacity.

Unfortunately, I think my developer mindset actually makes physical hacking a lot harder due to 2 phenomena:

1. Code is cheap. Materials are not. I'm used to being able to churn out additional code with basically no cost to get things done, not to repurposing existing code (this is different from refactoring to abstractions).

2. Laziness is a quality in software development, but a major obstacle in physical development. I'll quickly abandon physical projects because I can't find an optimally efficient hack to finish things in minimal time.

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Disagree completely:

1. Materials are cheap, how much did the roommate spend?

2. Laziness in code and physical is exactly the same psychological fuel: being bored doing always the same annoying task (eg remove the things to make room for the pizzas) is a strong incentive to find a hack to avoid the bore (add a contraption on the side of the table).

A former colleague was a great hacker, and he also did his own rollerblades, and built a part of his house.

I am some kind of software hacker too (daylong in python internals) and I did fix a car with a stone, I did elevated bed on two shelves, and currently I'm transforming a dead pot plant root into a nice piece of arte povera.

Another way for software and physical world hacking to be similar: in both cases, many people believe it to be hard, are afraid or somewhat restrained, but nearly all it takes is to just say to oneself "it's easy, let's try". While there are a few people with a brain that is no fit for fiddling with computers or screwdrivers, most of them who think they can't do it just never tried.

Disagree completely:

1. I've gone into hardware stores for small DIY tasks and parts/materials are not stuff you can buy with spare change. Tools and equipment are even more expensive.

2. Getting up and doing something physical for some of us takes a lot more effort than a mentally strenuous task.

Tools and equipment: It seems that the roommate did not use a lot of them. You can buy the best electronic screwdriver but you can also very often achieve the same result with a cheap screwdriver or even a kitchen knife.

For me digging deep into some code base, grepping the docs, reading some code in language I am not familiar with or that I dislike is exhausting, mentally and physically. I actually sweat a lot doing that, and it is the kind of sweat that stinks. Doing some woodwork is often less tiring, and the sweat it produces does not smell that bad.

> Tools and equipment: It seems that the roommate did not use a lot of them. You can buy the best electronic screwdriver but you can also very often achieve the same result with a cheap screwdriver or even a kitchen knife.

But the point is only that he only had one door. No room for trying it, breaking the door, and then trying again (your door is broken). Coding is the opposite: you get infinite retries.

> For me digging deep into some code base, grepping the docs, reading some code in language I am not familiar with or that I dislike is exhausting, mentally and physically. I actually sweat a lot doing that, and it is the kind of sweat that stinks. Doing some woodwork is often less tiring, and the sweat it produces does not smell that bad.

I envy you. I love everything on a computer (and never exhausting). Doing anything physical makes me completely miserable (possibly because I'm in terrible shape).

One door: sure that's a difference but not that significant. You can measure it and try in mentally in different positions. You have to think twice before sawing but actually in code you also have steps where thinking twice I'd required, eg choosing a framework, a data structure.

Shape: not sure it can be helpful but you could try to convince yourself that it's only in your head. I have seen very fat people doing physical work and enjoying it, maybe needed more frequent pauses, and but quite able to do anything except crawling under the table.

Materials are cheap, how much did the roommate spend?

First of all, the materials were "free" because they were already bought & paid for. Second of all the more important observation is that even though that first closet door was "free", he didn't have an infinite number of doors to mess up, throw out, and start from scratch.

As a software dev remodeling my house, I agree. It's been very hard to accept that all these learning projects are going to be redone three times, just like how I treat software.

I'm wasting wood! OMG! But I've made progress. Watching contractors has helped. I was astonished how much they waste, treat things as disposable. My father (a hardware guy) certainly would not have approved.

I'm framing a new closet with bypass sliding doors. I really have no idea what I'm doing. I knocked apart the first two attempts and hope the third works better. And I'm now okay with it. It's been kinda fun.

When i was taking my first programming related class, algorithms, the teacher told us we were like architechts, there shouldnt be errors/failures. Is it accepted for them to say: whoops building fell, guess i'll rebuild it?

While software can't be perfect, it has to be as flawless as possible. Code isn't cheap, it takes time. Who knows what else you could've built/made/learnt instead of fixing something cuz it costs "nothing"

> When i was taking my first programming related class, algorithms, the teacher told us we were like architechts, there shouldnt be errors/failures. Is it accepted for them to say: whoops building fell, guess i'll rebuild it?

That's an absolutely terrible approach to software development. You can test a program as many times as you want before releasing it, but there's no equivalent iterative process for making a house.

If you develop with that attitude, you'll never get anything of real value done. After all, "le mieux est l'ennemi du bien."

Apples and oranges when you jump from algorithm design to software in general.

An algorithm has mathematical underpinnings and can be created entirely on paper first. Turning ideas into applications however is drastically enhanced by prototyping extensively.

Agreed. If you have the wrong algorithm, it doesn't matter how well you implement it: it'll still give you the wrong answer. But no matter how right your algorithm is, if your I/O doesn't work properly, you'll still get the wrong answer. And that's just for things involving a single algorithm; if you're talking about the larger piece of software as a whole (since a lot of programming is not algorithms, algorithms is just one of the harder parts), testing and prototyping and all that becomes even more important.

> Is it accepted for them to say: whoops building fell, guess i'll rebuild it?

This is pretty much why real engineers scoff at the title 'software engineer.'

Unless they program in Ada.

I'm living in my second house that an engineer has owned. Avoid their ex houses if possible. The side gate had a post concreted in with a block 75x75x75cm. I had to get a drain though it. A week of evenings with a sledge hammer. I excavated 10 tons of concrete from the front yard that was buried there for some reason, and it stopped trees growing. I got guys in to do the 90 ton slab in the backyard. The previous house had a raised garden that was in the way that was made of 30cm thick reinforced concrete - 2cm thick rebar to keep the roses in. It was days of work to remove the small garden. Durability is one thing, but over engineering is damn expensive pain in the arse.

I excavated 10 tons of concrete from the front yard that was buried there for some reason, and it stopped trees growing.

It was probably a root barrier which was put there for the sole purpose of stopping the trees from growing and destroying your house.

Your teacher is... not the best.

Errr, you don't have to frame a closet three times to get it right. Like software devs, you can do a lot of learning without waste.

Framing lumber is cheap, but that's no excuse to waste so much. Contractors do it because they are charging other people for materials :)

In your case, if you are going to be remodeling your house and doing structural carpentry, i'd recommend "Renovation 4th edition" by Michael Litchfield as a starter book.

Also if you start doing something with more expensive lumber, like say, very high end woodworking, you will see nobody treats stuff as disposable.

The two challenges I have are assumed knowledge and lack of skills.

I've read the books, watched the videos, read the codes, helped my handyman friends. There's no substitute for DIY.

For the closet, I make a lot of little "learning opportunity" mistakes. I didn't make sure one of the header boards was truly true. I put 3-1/4 inches nails clean thru. Lots of trial and error with my spiffy new nail gun. Etc.

As for the software, I must be doing that wrong too. I'm always rewriting my own stuff.

"The two challenges I have are assumed knowledge and lack of skills. I've read the books, watched the videos, read the codes, helped my handyman friends. There's no substitute for DIY."

I guess I disagree. Without trying to sound like an elitist, my father taught me that doing this kind of work is not "brainy" work, but it is labor intensive and requires careful thought. With no offense meant (really!), it sounds like you are skipping the last part :)

Every book I have tells you to make sure header boards are true. Nailing schedules are often controlled by building code (though maybe not in this exact case, dunno where this closet is :P). Unless you are building a house from scratch, a framing nail gun is probably overkill, etc.

These things you call "learning mistakes" sound like "not being careful" to me. I see this often with software dev friends I helped. Because they are so used to throwing stuff out, they almost try to "incrementally" frame a window or whatever until they get one that works, rather than carefully think about where they are putting nails, measuring, marking, leveling, etc, before doing anything.

Remember that the contractors and handymen you watch have done this all a long time, and can probably do things like simply look at a frame and tell whether it's true with high accuracy. They also don't need to think as much about how to put nails in.

Again, i'm really not trying to tell you "you are doing it all wrong", just offering an opinion :)

I think in the end, the best way to overcome it is to just run at it. The screw it, let's do it mentality really helps me kickstart physical projects. I look at where I am, where I need to be and do/buy whatever it takes.

Do you really think of everything in terms programming? Just wondering.

Yes.

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