Comment by dredmorbius | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dredmorbius | Hacker News Reader

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And for anyone who discounts the affects of English dominion over Ireland, look up the history of the Irish Potato Famine, during which England continued exports of grain and beef from Ireland to England. This was while one million people died of starvation, and a million more emigrated (most to the US and Canada), a fifth to a quarter of the island's population. A classic case of distribution inequity. The implications in terms of home rule and ongoing political strife between Ireland and England persist to the present time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

Similar circumstances accompanied the Holodomor -- the Ukranian famine (then part of the USSR) from 1932-1933 in which 2.4-7.5 million people died, again while food was being exported to support the Russian SSR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ukrainian_famine

The point: history is rife with inequities. Addressing the problems we face now is going to have to involve setting those aside. I've speculated that it might be literacy (allowing records of the inequities to be preserved) which has a certain relationship with perpetrating the memory of such injustices (though it's also been pointed out that ignorant societies can be mobilized by demagogues).

In the instant case, I think it's fair for India to call for concessions by industrialized nations, but it's ultimately self-defeating to pursue a "growth" policy which will be anything but.

The general point "history is rife with inequities" is not going to mean anything to any developing nation. "History is rife with inequities" only means something to rich westerners.

You are not going to get India on board by claiming Ireland had it just as bad. India's GDP per capita is $1500. Ireland's is $45000. That's a factor of 30.

China is going to think the same way. They are going to see any bluster from western countries about emissions as thinly veiled attacks on their ability to industrialize. That's a perfectly reasonable opinion.

"history is rife with inequities" is not going to mean anything to any developing nation.

There are plenty of developing nations with their own histories of conflict. India and Pakistan come to mind. Much of Africa. Much of SE Asia and (take your pick) Japan and/or China (I'm omitting the colonial cases of Britain, France, the Netherlands, and the US here).

So: you're wearing LDC blinders. And my broader point is we need to get over this. Not ignore it, but get over it.

Just to be clear, we're talking in the context of emissions.

In the context of emissions, it's perfectly reasonable for a developing country to say "Well, we were just colonized, so we're not really keen on reducing our competitiveness to fix a problem you created" to a western country. "History is rife with inequities", will not mean anything to them.

And if you want to fix the problem of emissions, you need to understand that, instead of just saying "Well these developing countries are sure being jerks by blocking talks!"

What is an LDC blinder, btw?

LDC: less-developed country. Blinder: inability to see (or acknowledge) an issue. It's a case of being so vested in an un/underpriviledged mindset that you justify or dismiss harmful actions on your own part.

Blocking talks (and I'll have to give the article / broader story a closer read to see how accurate that is) is a dick move, plain and simple. Making an alternate proposal (and I'd be more than happy to consider normalizing CO2 emissions per capita as an alternative) would work for me.

When a significant aspect of the Slate article dealt not with CO2 emissions but with HFCs -- hydroflourocarbons, used as refrigerants and themselves potent and long-lived greenhouse gases -- it becomes rather more difficult to pull the carbon / colonization card. Which is just what India are doing here.

You've gone on the attack against several people in this thread, largely on the "India was oppressed" card. Not to put too fine a point on it: that's not productive. If you want to introduce that fact into your debate, I'd suggest finding an alternative argument.

Seeming reasonable to people this thread is not a priority for India. Neither is seeming reasonable to western countries. India wants to industrialize, and they will do it any way they can.

If you care about emissions, you need to understand that. Saying that they are making dick moves for making perfect reasonable, rational decisions given their position will not be compelling to them.

Wanting something alone won't make it so.

Mind: the industrialized Western nations need to learn this as well.

You missed my point,

"Because, Colonization"

argument is silly, both Ireland and India were colonized for prolonged periods, both experienced extreme hardships in that time (and some benefits too of British rule)

both became independent roughly around same time, yet now both have very different standard of living for average person

blaming colonization is stupid when there are multiple other variables present

If the point is that colonialism isn't the only variable that exists, then we are all on the same page. That was explicitly stated in the thread.

India was colonized and India has access to better technology and medicine compared to the original industrialized nations during their time to industrialize. Both are facts.

Regardless, India does not have an incentive to care about Ireland's or anyone else's path to industrialization. This is important if you want to convince India to adopt emissions standards.

About your argument, it is very easy to assume you are implying something very sinister. You mention that two countries had roughly the same colonial past and gained independence at roughly the same time, but one country is 30 times more productive per capita.

It is reasonable to expect someone to assume you are implying that one country's people are 30 times better than the other's. That is obviously putting words in your mouth, but you left a lot in your argument to the imagination.

Er you are pulling words our of some hole and putting them in my mouth...

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