When income grows, who gains?
stateofworkingamerica.org
stateofworkingamerica.org
I'd say it is completely unfair that a government takes a portion of my income away from me and spends for what it considers to be important, while not giving me the slightest chance to spend it on things I consider to be an ultimate good for the world. Are people in the government somehow know the ultimate truth? Are they the ones who only do good, while taxpayers are evil?
Society isn't free. You still have to contribute to the common good, but you do have a choice as to where a very large chunk of that contribution ends up.
[1]: http://www.irs.gov/Charities-%26-Non-Profits/Charitable-Orga...
Regarding assumptions; I hope you realise how many assumption you made in your first post. Who's to say what's stealing, honesty, force etc.
Do you really want to remove all the social responsibilities (taxes, fair wages etc) but keep all the privileges of the wealthy (private-property)?
2. When a government collects taxes, it does so threatening taxpayers with penalties and jail, even though those taxpayers never signed a contract saying they have to give a certain share of their income to the government.
But anyway, that's such black and white view that it's close to dogmatism. I reckon I would be wasting my time if I'd continue to discuss.
I see. And if the worker decides he doesn't like working for any of the available employers, what happens then?
I don't know where and in what social circles you live in, but most people on this planet can not simply choose to get an education that can significantly change one's material status. It costs money. Lots of money.
Mind you, I'm in no way a supporter of state or taxes, but saying people who face real existential risks tied to not having a job or having only access to low paying jobs have more choice than people who don't like paying taxes is ultra cynical. It is not my intention to offend you, but it simply is. Get some perspective please.
I do. I pay a 50% tax rate, and I like it. I love that my country has virtually zero crime. I like that education is free. I absolutely love that medical care is free.
Some tasks are better taken care by the society as a whole, not by individuals. If that society as a whole is the demonized government, so be it. As long as they are not too inneficient.
If you live somewhere you have to observe the rules of the society there. If the rule is 50% tax then that's it. "But I don't wanna." and "It's not fair." are not the valid points. It's not like it was in eastern block countries that you couldn't leave.
Humans are social species. The reason you can own things is that people sort of agreed over the years that it's beneficial for the society to allow you to decide about what's to be done with some things. Within reasonable bounds of course. If you decide to slaughter the cow you own and use the remains to create biohazard you can expect to be disowned of some stuff pretty quickly.
And the whole "fair" thing basically ends as you graduate from high-school or college. Adults like to talk about it but don't practically concern themselves with it when they do business.
Self-interest doesn't make someone incorrect. Isn't that one of the tenets of libertarianism? Also, it's not like the free market is some kind of objective tie-breaker. Outcomes in a market are highly sensitive to regulatory conditions. Before you suggest doing away with as many regulations as possible, consider that "regulatory conditions" can include things as basic as the definition of property, which is a problem that cannot be dodged in even the most libertarian of societies. Does society have a notion of intellectual property? If not, how do you propose to fund drug development? Can infrastructure be privately owned? If so, how do you stop natural monopolies from destroying competition? Should a company be allowed to buy up property surrounding your house and then ransom travel through their property off for all you are worth plus all you can borrow? The list goes on.
> I'd say it is completely unfair that a government takes a portion of my income
Whoa, there! You're assuming what you set out to prove: that the government's slice was yours to begin with. The social contract comes as a bundle deal. You "sign away" your tax dollars by being part of a society that provides services to you. Obviously no explicit consent is involved, but that's because it can't be involved. Voting is the best compromise we've been able to come up with.
Even in a libertarian society, government provides one very important service that disproportionately benefits the rich: enforcement of property law.
> Are people in the government somehow know the ultimate truth?
No, the existence of government is a compromise between a free market that has flaws and a system of absolute control that also has flaws. We delegate responsibility for the areas where one system is hopelessly flawed to the other system (which merely has to do a better job, not a flawless job). Adam Smith himself acknowledged that the free market is not suited to provide certain services (police, infrastructure, military, etc). The goverment isn't aware of any "ultimate truth" here, but they aren't going to pull the whole "box you in and take all your money" stunt either.
Funny, I feel like the whole "free market knows best" idea pops up in every thread even though I have no trouble providing counterexamples. I'm genuinely curious to see how you would solve the problems I brought up, especially the ones surrounding the subjectivity of property law.
> the important thing to understand is that a government is not some magic cure for all the problems you mentioned
I'm pretty sure my post said precisely that. We agree on this point; no need to belabor it. My statement amounts to the trivial counterpart regarding free markets, but I'm pretty sure you don't actually think free markets are perfect (or even always a better option), so how about we continue on to the part where we discuss specifics?
> Monopolies are mostly not good for consumers; and a huge one with an access to an unlimited force is certainly not.
A monopoly without profit-maximizing incentives, universally shared ownership, and checks+balances (relatively speaking on both counts, of course) seems preferable to one with profit-maximizing incentives, without broad ownership, and without checks+balances. Especially when it comes to force.
> A monopoly without profit-maximizing incentives and with universally shared ownership (relatively speaking on both counts, of course) seems preferable
Now, that's in theory. In practice, where are those angels who work in the government and don't seek profit for themselves? Where do you find those people who would be immune to lobbyists and always serve the people of the country? Because if you don't have a very precise workable procedure on how to elect such individuals and also the one that wouldn't allow them to become corrupt in the process, then you can't claim an existence of such a monopoly is better than its absence.
Politics attracts people who like power and would willingly lie to and coerce the people who elected them. The only way I see is to deny such people opportunity to have this power. Free market may not be perfect, but it fosters virtue to a much greater degree than politics. A politician must first get power to do some good, while a businessmen must first do some good to make money.
Nonsense.
Our household is in the top 1% of households for earnings. We have no problem paying taxes. We'd like them to be lower for everyone (less waste) but we earn a lot and we contribute a lot to the world around us. This is a good thing.
The US busted unions and fought organised labor in general since the 1970s, and deregulated industry enormously. Also taxation is at a historic low. Those are the causes of the massive wealth presently accumulating at the top -- wealthy people today are not more meritocratic or harder working than wealthy people from the 1950s. But they're much, much wealthier. The reduction in real wages since the 70s has pushed regular people into debt (in an attempt to live a middle class lifestyle) with all the predictable negative consequences.
This is even terrible from a libertarian point of view. Because a country without a middle class is a country without consumers.
When you say taxation is at historic low you have to remember that it is those who are at the top and are in bed with politicians who can afford to pay low taxes. Starting entrepreneurs and mom and pop businesses pay a lot. That's not even mentioning the fact that they have a lot less options to protect their savings from inflation (which is also a tax). If you look at the US govt share in the economy it grew from about 8-10% in the 1930s to more than 50% now. Those who get enormously rich these days are mostly those who are in bed with the government.
You can easily say that no one would be successful without roads or electricity, so there is always some percentage of a person's success derived from society.
Society lowers the cost of innovation far more than any perceived hurdles it may place in front of people, in all but the most extreme cases (like Syria maybe?).
So, what do you mean?
You can? A lot of people became successful without roads or electricity in the past. Actually, I'm pretty sure those who built roads or invented electricity became successful without those things. Then others paid them to use their invention and that paved way to their success.
Of course everyone's success depends on many things that were built before. But to claim that only a government can build those things and therefore you are forever indebted to the society as a whole is just plain wrong.
Are you willing to pay Apple for the rest of your life because it invented the modern smartphone?
I'm willing to pay Apple for a smartphone. Why would I pay them for life? Even if I did pay them for life, what would that have to do with anything?
Nowadays, everyone uses roads. If you claim today that you are a self-made person that doesn't owe anything to anyone, I could just point out that roads exist and without them you would not be successful. I guess Genghis Khan was pretty successful without roads, but what does that have to do with anything?
Right now, other people make things that allow individuals to succeed. Right now, if you succeed and claim other people did not have anything to do with it, you are lying to yourself and everyone else.
Edit: And therefore, the idea of a rich man who made his money 'honestly' is too simple to be useful in any framework that manages a modern society. The definition of 'honest' is missing.
We do have a way of rewarding innovators: patents and copyrights. Now, those systems have been abused from everywhere to Texas, but it can be reformed. At least I would like to think so.
What I don't get is why people just don't look at the labor side of this argument. A wealthy person certainly didn't create a work force and educate them. He didn't provide them with a stability and other basic needs. Even at a more basic level where do all the consumers come from? Don't they buy products based on their desires that are largely due to society as well?
I really do think we find ourselves in an economic "web of life."
I don't like the idea of framing it as honest and dishonest either. I would much rather make sure that the wealthy don't have too much leverage overs others in society.
An example I would give is how credit card companies have basically pushed the risks out to merchants. Yes combat fraud. Also push for chip and pin in the states so that less of it occurs and figure out something with online purchases.
To a lesser extent we have taken steps when we recognize this imbalance. Cigarette companies can no longer market to minors. Young minds being the most impressionable ones.
> if you succeed and claim other people did not have anything to do with it, you are lying to yourself and everyone else
No, I don't claim that. What I claim is that I would like to know exactly who those people are. If I use a road to deliver what my company produces, I would like to pay for this road before I actually use it. Now my business may fail, or it may succeed, but the owner of the road gets paid. I don't owe anyone more than they asked me to pay at that moment in time. Nor do they. I think that's fair. Don't you?
Typically if you have a guy build a road and you let that guy control the pricing, he charges a lot because he has a monopoly. That transfers wealth to the road builder at the expense of all the would-be businessmen who would build institutions that use the road.
So societies use governments to control a relationship between the manager of the road and the people that use the road. The price to use the road dips because of the enhanced bargaining power of the people that use the road through the institution of government. Typically governments even subsidize the unit cost of using the road by paying the road manager directly up front, because the corresponding increase in business is worth it across a society.
I think that if you have a system that focuses on individuals and their relationships to roads and road builders without regulation by a large third party that represents all members of the society, you'll get a situation where the road builder uses the monopoly power to price road usage so highly that business investment is hampered. Usually people use government institutions to manage this sort of thing, and usually it works pretty good.
I think this is pretty basic stuff, no?
A government, on the other hand, is a monopoly. Furthermore, if for some reason I dislike the quality of the services that are provided or I dislike the way they are provided (for example, I ride a motorcycle and government requires me to wear a helmet, even though it is only my life I risk by not wearing it) then I still have to pay. If I don't pay, I get fined and may go to jail. It's not just a monopoly, it's extortion.
Imagine your ISP knocks on your door and says: "Hello sir. You are going to pay us this amount a month, we will provide you with internet access. The quality is going to be completely up to us, you can't unsubscribe and if you stop paying, you'll be fined and may go to jail. Oh, and there are practically no competitors, only very expensive ones. And if you use them, you would still have to pay us." How would you like that? Why roads are different? Nearly everyone uses Internet these days, just like they use roads.
Finally, you made this point "Typically governments even subsidize the unit cost of using the road". Actually, taxpayers subsidize it, not government. Government doesn't have any money.
It is wrong because it doesn't make sense, but I don't think tks2103 equated government and society (am I wrong?). Are you equating them? Government does not represent society in any meaningful way. Almost always it's a foreign body on society.
What do you mean government is a foreign body on society? Society is made of people, and people usually make up governments.
Then we are in complete agreement on that. I was pretty sure you didn't equate them, but asked because snitko made it seem like you did. I assumed he just read that into what you wrote, but better to check.
> What do you mean government is a foreign body on society? Society is made of people, and people usually make up governments.
Governments are generally not there to benefit society, but to impose the will of those in power on it. You can, of course, cite many philosophical speculations that it isn't so, but the reality doesn't support those speculations. Almost all good any government has done for the people who are not in power was fought for by those not in power, or is simply a preemptive scheme to calm down the masses.
Think about it, before the lowest 90% were competing with themselves. Now they're competing with the Chinese, Indians, and robots who are happy with a few dollars a day or a nice greasing.
In depth report of why inequality is growing in OECD countries: http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/social-...
Massive-scale wealth is created by the labor of others, and you become massively wealthy by figuring out how to keep more of the wealth than the laborers keep.
No one creates a billion dollars on their own. The "good fortune" is merely finding yourself in that position; the wealth was created by collaboration, on purpose.
> And by honestly I mean he didn't force people to pay him and he didn't coerce anyone to pay him.
Every economic transaction takes place within the context of coercion, because property rights are themselves coercion. For instance, people who need to work to pay the rent "choose" to work because they will be evicted from their shelter by law enforcement if they do not pay.
Libertarians like to pretend that this sort of force doesn't exist, and only use the term "force" when other people enforce their right to property via taxation. It's totally intellectually dishonest, and I suspect most libertarians are aware of this but continue to use such terminology because it makes it less obvious that they are merely arguing for entrenchment of their own privilege.
Almost no one here will question the effect of the 80/20 principle has on their business[1].
So why are people surprised when it rears its head in income statistics?
I think the more interesting part of these graphs is that economic mobility can regress in society and the USA has not hit a point in its development where that is not true. It's like the price of freedom being eternally vigilant thing except most of society is unaware or powerless.
The Facebook 'like' button has arguably created billions of dollars in wealth for Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook's early shareholders. What percentage of that wealth went to the employees who came up with the idea? This is the question we should be asking.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/earnings-in-the-uk-over-t...
Inequality has increased, but the poor and the middle-income have also seen significant increases in their prosperity.
Not that the rich would feel much if they would lose 50% of their income, but it would at least mean that some of the theory is true, and the rich really do carry more risk, and in that way protect the stability of the overall economy.
What the graph does not tell you is that US dollar was no longer pegged to gold after 1971 (Bretton Woods). The currency devalued over time and the wealthy were in diverse asset classes that retained or grew in value over time (such as equities, forex, real estate, etc). The rest of society kept most of their money in cash.
Not true. Regular people have most of their wealth in their house and cars. That's if they have net wealth in the first place. (And 401ks and other mutual funds, which is also not cash money).
According to the census bureau households(depending on income or asset quintile) have between $200 and $1800 in their checking account. (http://www.census.gov/people/wealth/)
Also, many people do not have access to a 401k: 50.6% of Americans work for an employer that sponsors a retirement savings plan. 40.4% of employees utilized a 401(k) or pension in 2008.
http://www.ebri.org/pdf/briefspdf/EBRI_IB_11-2009_No336_Ret-...
If they do have a 401k plan, it really depends what assets you can buy. If the plan offered only allows you to purchase mutual funds with high load and yearly fees, your wealth is being transferred to others. Over time, you will lose money vs the index. There are also penalties for early withdrawals.
Also, people are not forced to put money in a 401k or to buy a house or car. They could save that money and do something productive with it. On that link you posted, the wealthy DID NOT have most of their wealth in a 401k, it was in equities, equity in their business, rental properties, and other assets.
So, the point I was making was - the wealthy put the money to work for them rather than other way around. Imagine if you had excess money during the 2008 recession, you could have had many opportunities to make money. Most had their money (as you mentioned) tied up in their house or car. So, really it is about the wealthy being in a position to advantage of all available opportunities.
To fix this you need to remove money makes money.
Examples of money makes money that would need fixing:
To save money (i.e. by insulating your house) you need money
To get a better job, you need time/education, this also requires money up front.
To create a new big profitable company, you need money.
If your a bank you need money (unless your local law doesn't require this) to get money by the interest.
If you wish to get interest of money you need money.
To buy a house, you need money, after a 30 years, you get more money back then you invested.
Then World War II has two more effects: it finally kicks the U.S. economy into gear through massive government spending but maybe more important the rest of the first world (Europe and Japan) has most of it's infrastructure heavily damaged. The only other potential competitor, the Soviet Union, disengages from the capitalist economies of the 1st world and builds it own 2nd world of communist countries. This leads to spectacular growth in 1950s and 1960s for the U.S. and with the New Deal consensus it mostly goes to the working class and the middle class.
In the 1970s, the consensus starts to break down primarily due to two factors: automation and globalization. The rest of the world begins to recover and compete. And because thy haven't had the same sort of growth the U.S. did, their workers are much cheaper. Additional automation begins to create an ever-lowering ceiling on how much a low skill job is worth. Once the machinery to automate a job becomes cheaper than the worker, that worker is out of a job.
In the 1980s, the business owners (who never really like the New Deal) use their newfound leverage to create a coalition with libertarians and social conservatives to essentially dismember the government portion of the New Deal. Once this is done, the pie continues to grow, but the rich have start to grow their portion of it.
http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/who-gains/#/?start=2000...
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows
Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died
Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows