Soy's Negative Effects (2009) | Hacker News Reader

Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

menshealth.com

54 points001sky46 comments

This is why I am always extremely skeptical of any kind of diet extremism. I cringe any time someone labels something a "superfood", as that means they are likely to encourage eating it far beyond the point where it is healthy. I also cringe any time a dietary recommendation to remove a major macronutrient (fat, carbs) from your diet; that tends to lead to extreme compensation with something else, which can also be unhealthy.

And this is also why I cringe about the hype over Soylent. We really don't know all that much about nutrition. We are constantly discovering new things about it; it's an incredibly complex topic, the way our body interacts with different things that we eat. Coming out with a product that you're encouraging people to replace their entire diet with, and saying that it's safe because you have personally tested it for a couple of months, is insane. A lot of these kinds of effects can only be seen after years, or only impact 10% of the population, or the like.

    "In today's supermarkets," he says, his voice weary, 
    "you can't hardly get anything without at least some soy 
    in it."

It's funny that he says this. I eat very little soy, unless I've chosen to in the form of tofu or soy sauce. How do I manage this? By only buying things that don't need ingredient lists because they are a single ingredient. If you buy fresh produce, meat, flour, eggs, etc. and actually cook yourself, you can easily control what's in your diet. Don't buy prepackaged instant meals that you'll need to inspect the ingredient list of, and you'll be fine.

Anyhow, I'm sure that after articles like this, people will start doing the extreme reaction again, of "soy free" everything, replacing with something else that has some other potential health problem. Soy, in moderation, causes no problems for the vast majority of people. This guy is a special case, due to both his sensitivity and the extreme amount he consumed, replacing much of his protein intake with soy.

> This is why I am always extremely skeptical of any kind of diet extremism.

That's my approach as well. Single ingredient things are hard though. Take meat or eggs. It is one ingredient but depending what that animal ate or drugs they've been injected, it is also hard to know what you are getting. At some point I just give up and stop worrying about it. Some people get way too obsessed about it, someone I know "owns" a fraction of a cow get accessed to unpasteurized milk, that is fine by me but not the level I would go to.

Yeah, even those can vary, but if you generally try to err on the side of local, organic, humanely raised, non GMO foods, you can be reasonably confident in the food you eat. Obviously you're never going to hit those all at once, and avoiding extremism in those areas can be good too; for example, sometimes people using organic pesticides can do more damage as they have to use much more pesticides than those using IPM with synthetic pesticides.

My approach is generally to err on the side of what's good, healthy, sustainable, and tasty rather than than what's cheap and convenient, but not to be an extremist about anything. I eat a mostly, but not entirely vegetarian diet; I get most of my produce locally when it's in season, but more shelf-friendly foods like flour I don't worry about getting locally.

This article is 4 years old and has been debunked over and over again.

This has a links to a number of studies on the subject

http://www.livestrong.com/article/548574-soy-protein-male-br...

Have a link or two handy for pieces that have debunked this?

That link has a reference (not a link) to one article that (apparently) provides contrary evidence. The only link provided debunks none of it.

You should probably scroll all the way to the bottom

Humor me. Reproduce the links here.

Do note that my agenda is a lot more about live strong being a poor resource than it is about soy.

There, copied one for you, so you don't have to waste 2 seconds giving a pageview to that pesky website: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18558591/

That's the only link there!

And like I said, it doesn't debunk anything.

These sorts of "studies" are still being published, many of them funded by the dairy industry. Has nothing to do with science or nutrition as is taught in college, it is simply sales and marketing not unlike similar studies done by the tobacco industry just a few decades ago.

This report talks about new introductions to the American diet. However, though soy may be relatively new to the US, my understanding is that Soy and soy-based products like Tofu have been popular in countries like China and Japan for many centuries.

Has any research been done to establish whether soy has been harmful in countries where they've been eating it for generations ?

I'd also be curious to know whether the alleged "harmful" effect observed in soy-based products (like soymilk etc.) has also been observed in plain soybeans.

Obligatory Examine.com link:

http://examine.com/faq/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-me.html

exactly (T)his. i (k)new you would beat me to posting. even control + f'd (Two) see if y(o)u beat me to postin(G)

I'm allergic to milk and have been taking soy protein, soy milk, etc. for years with no problems. My evidence is anecdotal but silverhydra's is not.

If anyone thinks there is a problem with soy, go read examine.

Why even drink soy "milk" why not water or some other liquid, or other animal milk you may not be allergic to?

It seems to me people are compelled to have a milk substitute whether due to allergy or ethical reasons as if we need to have something called milk in our fridges.

It reminds me of the tofurky a soy shaped turkey supposedly tastes like turkey, it would be like a person who eats a lot of meat making a carrot out of meat colouring it orange and making it taste like a carrot, why even bother.

Because Im a powerlifter. Powerlifters need calories and Soy milk + my protein powder tastes good but my protein powder with water tastes like gasoline (and soy milk has more calories too).

I used to do soy protein + water and it was pretty bad but I could handle it. I recently switched to Beef and Egg protein from Soy protein and it tastes amazing in chocolate soy milk.

When you can't eat cheese, most desserts, pizza, and anything with a questionable production practice ("did my food share a surface with a milk product?"), and much more, you eat things without a lot of taste. I like Soy milk because it tastes good and keeps me sane while getting me my calories.

I drink coffee with almond milk. I also drink it black, but not all the time. I use warm almond milk with espresso instead of a latte due to the large number of calories in a latte because of the milk. I used to drink two lattes a day.

For any dietary scheme built on avoiding certain foods (vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free, keto, paelo etc), there is a thriving cottage industry of substitutes.

Some folk have an ethical objection to milk but want something that vaguely resembles it. For such people, whitened liquid cardboard -- soy juice -- is a popular alternative. Other people drink almond juice or rice juice.

Edit: and some people have allergies or intolerance to things in milk. I'm lactose intolerant, so I'm covered by lactose-free milk. But some people are genuinely intolerant of milk proteins etc.

  whitened liquid cardboard

I object to that characterization. I rather like the taste of plain, unsweetened soymilk. It fills a very different niche than milk, however; milk is thicker and heavier (unless it's skim crap), and I'll have it with dessert, while soymilk is lighter and more refreshing. But I don't drink either on a regular basis.

I think it varies from person to person; I know people who love it.

I found it tasted, quite sincerely, like cardboard. I was reminded of the Adams line about "almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea".

What a pile of first world problems. I suspect a lot fewer guys will quit sugar and lose weight instead of quitting soy after reading this. And diabetes makes soy estrogen mimicking hormones look like kids' play when it comes to erectile dysfunction.

A guy in his 50s or 60s (well past when the boys are pumping out huge amounts of testosterone) drinking _3 quarts_ of soy milk per day is not exactly typical.

And don't forget, it was only one guy...

The NEJM it ain't. Thanks for the links to the debunking articles.

Who clearly has not take even one semester of college level nutrition.

I had the awful experience of (at the age of 15) having my father decide to be a vegan (due to a mid-life crisis) and replace all protein sources in our house with tofu and tempeh. It was fucking awful, and on top of the constant gas I had (going to high school with bad gas is itself torture) I remember having soreness and tenderness in the breast region. My progress in the weight room (I played football and wrestled) crumbled. It was my coaches who suspected the vegan diet at home. They didn't necessarily pinpoint soy, but essentially came to their own conclusion that I wasn't able to digest the soy protein, explaining my sudden inability to put on muscle.

Eventually, after 2 months, I rebelled and began getting meat wherever and whenever I could. I'm still very resentful of my father's sudden switch to veganism at my expense. I am particularly hateful of the PETA fanatics (it was a pretty woman he dated) who converted him from a hunter and fisherman to a silly fuck who wears turquoise and preaches animal rights. Did I mention his vegan diet of over 18 years has resulted in him having bad heart disease?

"Vegan diets do not result in heart disease. Many studies have shown that vegetarians seem to have a lower risk of obesity, coronary heart disease (which causes heart attack), high blood pressure, diabetes mellitus and some forms of cancer." (http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/NutritionCenter...). There are plenty of other of legitimate articles if you look for them.

You may have some kind of soy allergy. Your gas and breast experience is neither universal nor typical.

I won't question your unusually strong feelings towards PETA, but please don't confuse what they do with animal welfare. Also, your bad feelings towards your father will do you no good in life, and you should try to get on decent terms with him before he dies (considering his advanced heart disease).

Anyone who carefully considers their diet likely has a lower incidence of heart disease than someone who doesn't because of noting food sources and caring about food. You could pick any arbitrary diet and draw similar large-scale conclusions.

The real data is when you consider two groups who consider their diet. The national average is absolutely not a control for meaningful diet analysis.

I saw Soylent mentioned on the first page, and then this para from the NYT's Well page stood out even more starkly:

>> "Last year, in its nutrition guidelines for cancer survivors, the American Cancer Society noted that eating traditional soy foods — like tofu, miso, tempeh and soy milk — may help lower the risk of breast, prostate and other cancers. But the guidelines do not recommend soy supplements, which tend to be highly processed and not very rigorously tested."

http://www.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2013/09/27/ask-well-is-it-...

Here's another piece about Soy's side effects from the Scientific American: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=soybean-fer...

Soy is not used in Soylent. He named it after Make Room! Make Room![1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_(food_substitute)

You're right, and my bad at that wrong association.

The nytimes blog entry is at http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/27/ask-well-is-it-safe...

I have a friend who's son is being raised primarily by his ex-wife. They have a good relationship even divorced, especially where the son is concerned. Recently the boy stayed with his father for a week, during which he took him to the gym to get in shape. He's a little fat and his father wanted to help him work on his self-image. At the gym, the boy would not remove his shirt, and when he finally acquiesced and did his father found out it was because his son had considerable man-tits. Enough that they actually are looking like women's breasts.

The boy's mother had been feeding him soy milk and other soy products as a primary staple of their diet. She eventually caught on what was happening but only after it was too late. He's sworn off of soy. It's going to take considerable effort to undo what has happened to him, his doctor has even discussed the possibility of testosterone treatments to counteract the damage.

It is interesting that usually kids don't get a good diet because parents don't care enough about nutrition, just eat whatever is cheaper or faster. In this case it is the opposite, a soy diet is usually associated with being very conscious of what the child eats. Soy is usually associated with "healthy" eating. But it ended up having an opposite effects.

"Healthy" eating is a huge market. There is of course Whole Foods, whole isles devoted to it in regular stores. It is a good of course. But there is a lot of irrationality and guesswork going on. What is interesting is that it is often people who are considered "intelligent" that end up believing various fads and strange ideas about health and nutrition. Like say I know a smart guy, a good programmer, believed in Acai thing and was drinking that. Someone else is into colon cleansing. Another one is eating super-doses of vitamins. These are supposedly educated people, good logic, math and programming skills yet they believe these strange ideas. And because of their intelligence they are harder to convince, as they are a lot better at rationalizing things away.

This might be completely hypothetical, but might there be a genetic component?

I'm convinced (based on my heavy soy intake as an Asian male with no ill effects) that some people are less prone to what the guy in the article experienced.

Yes, various people have posted links to a variety of studies that have been done, and it seems like there is a good deal of individual variation, and that these kinds of effects only happen to people who are particularly prone and replace the vast majority of their protein intake with soy.

This has a summary of several pieces of research:

http://examine.com/faq/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-me.html

Yes, but not the genetics of humans. My guess would be that the genetics of the soybean plants would be a more likely culprit for any strange hormonal reactions in men:

HT soybeans went from 17 percent of U.S. soybean acreage in 1997 to 68 percent in 2001 and 93 percent in 2013

source: http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/adoption-of-geneticall...

The reality is that soybeans aren't genetically modified for nutritional reasons; they are modified for economic reasons, and GE foods haven't been around long enough for us to really know what kind of side-effects come from optimizing for the herbicide-tolerant "economics" side of GE.

This article treats soy like a poison. What makes a poison is the dose, and the stories cited are talking about enormous doses of soy. Too much water will give you dilutional hyponatremia, does that mean you need to cut it out of your diet? Here's a accessible article: http://blog.zocdoc.com/does-soy-feminize-men-fact-vs-myth/. And here's a study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378106. Sigh.

I think almond milk tastes better anyways.

As much as people talk about how this is debunked, there was a period of about 6 months (early 30s) where i was drinking tons of Silk and i could swear it made me soft breasty, and i swear everything hardened up again when i quit.

Soy contains phytoestrogens. Rats fed soy products had significantly reduced testosterone levels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens

Red-blooded American Males: 1 Unwashed Hippies: 0

Thanks for the info! I'm glad I never introduced my son to soy products..

Is this going to be your only source of information on the subject?

The old adage "If it's on the internet it's true" is still alive and well... unfortunately

Soy milk is absolutely not a requirement of any diet. In the scheme of human diet, it is a relatively new invention, so it absolutely cannot be a necessary staple of human diet.

Can the body process it? Sure. But your body can digest almost everything.

My parents have been telling me this for years. I'm glad I listened.

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