The Climate Change Climate Change
online.wsj.com
online.wsj.com
Part of this problem stems from the fact I'm a christian and conservative in ways ... yet, at the same time, the environment and stewardship are important to me. Regardless, I'm not going to take a stand on climate change/global warming simply because someone on the left or right says I need to.
How does one find information on climate change that isn't politically motivated?
All that being said the people who promote global warming as a serious issue that we need to do something about could be right of course. It could also be that they're missing some key piece of information that they don't even know exists. The unknown unknowns here seem impossible to get your head around for something as difficult to understand as climate change.
I'm not sure where you find information that isn't biased one way or another on this topic. I've pretty much given up.
Well, at least I wont be alone if I give up too ...which is very possible :)
This is why Bjorn Lomborg is reviled: not because he doubts that anthropogenic global warming is for real, but because he has the temerity to suggest that the cure (spending a kajillion dollars to achieve relatively small changes in climate) may be worse than the disease. See http://www.ted.com/talks/bjorn_lomborg_sets_global_prioritie....
And dancing about, declaring that the science is settled, and claiming to know the One True Solution to something as inherently complex as climate is indicative of failure to understand the science, which leads to politically motivated footballs like this: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/25/source-inside-epa-conf...
Note that I'm not restricting my query to Europe. Feel free to explain which people should count and how much.
As for this opinion piece, another commentator has pointed out that the senator in question, Steve Fielding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Fielding) is a known skeptic (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=676593) but the article makes no mention of this. Instead it portrays him as a fence-sitting politician who has been let down by the Obama administration so he has "decided" to vote against his country's climate-change legislation. His decision was made well before his stunt of asking the Obama administration for advice.
As for as the facts are concerned, the idea that all information on climate change is poltitically motivated is itself a lie spread by certain forces within society.
As far as policy is concerned, the role of environmental groups is to create recommendations on how to manage limited resources among multiple stakeholders who want to use them. Some of the more leftwing environmental groups believe that their job is just to protect the earth, whatever that means, but the more mainstream ones are in the business of solving tragedy-of-the-commons problems like climate change. They are probably you're best bet for sound policy advice, albeit they often on specific tactics.
edit: @EnvDefenseFund has some good tweets about what is going on today.
[Question:] There's a lot of debate right now over the best way to communicate about global warming and get people motivated. Do you scare people or give them hope? What's the right mix?
[Gore's Answer:] ... I believe it is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presentations on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience to listen to what the solutions are, and how hopeful it is that we are going to solve this crisis.
How has global warming fared on the accuracy front? Terribly. We were promised monotonically rising global temperatures for the next hundred years, and instead, they plateaued, then dropped, only ten years into the predictions.
As an outsider, the rest hardly matters. Why the predictions were wrong is something for the scientists to go work out. Explaining away the wrongness with "whys" doesn't change the wrongness, it only explains it.
If you think I'm wrong, show me the prediction from 2000 or so that actually matches what happened to the real climate. Show me the error bars that the global temperature is still within. (Most global warming graphs don't even have error bars, which itself is pretty telling.) As far as I know, you can't.
Explaining that failure doesn't change the fact of failure. If the last ten years is "mere weather", then the error bars should have reflected that.
That is how you judge science as an outsider. You may not understand materials science, but the bridges the materials scientists help build behave as they predict (mostly). You may not understand organic chemistry, but plastics behave as such people predict. You may not understand political science, but the real world only sort of acts as they predict, so their science is less reliable.
You may not understand climate science, but their predictions completely fail to come to pass. Fairly routinely, too. Make your conclusions about the validity of their science based on that. You don't have to be a climate scientist to do that. (As it happens, it is the same standard they should be using themselves, and the field's apparent refusal to do so is also very telling.)
(Where no predictions can be made, there is no science. Sometimes that's just the way it is; economics isn't going to be a very real science anytime soon. There's nothing wrong with that, there's only something wrong with according it the belief levels in the predictions made by the field that should be reserved for real science.)
Global warming is influenced by a multitude of contributing gases etc. Some of them can also cause cooling. Weather, being unpredictable of course screws up predictions. Also the oceans are taking a substancial amount of CO2 gases for instances which causes warming delays.
I agree with the error bars but climatology is not exactly a easy science if you have so many variables. Its not that we fully understand "just weather" yet.
Interesting question though, temperatures were constant for more or less 1 Mio. years (thanks ice-core probes for that information). Why suddenly in the last 100 years or so do we see a difference if you look in the timeframe of 1900 to now?
Even if I play your logic and go for a moment on your side and say ok who knows maybe the predictions are wrong. Does it makes sense to drive the Coal/Oil/Gas burning train? There is more waste coming from burning these than just CO2 you know.
We don't. Temperatures weren't constant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Five_Myr_Climate_Change.pn...
While the last decade may have peaked somewhat high, the fact that we are dropping back down would mean that other hypotheses such as "our proxy data isn't as detailed as we like" need to be considered.
"say ok who knows maybe the predictions are wrong."
No. The predictions aren't "maybe" wrong. I'm not hypothesizing. I'm looking out the window. (Metaphorically, that is, I'm looking at real observations.) The predictions are wrong. Right now.
"Does it makes sense to drive the Coal/Oil/Gas burning train? There is more waste coming from burning these than just CO2 you know."
This is terrible science. You're asking me to believe in global warming, because burning gasoline is bad. Why not... explain why burning gasoline is bad, then act on that, instead? Why not talk about ocean pollution or overfishing and act on them directly, instead? While climatologists are distracting us with computer-modeled chimeras, real problems are being neglected.
Start with the truth. Work out from there. That's science.
"No. The predictions aren't "maybe" wrong. I'm not hypothesizing. I'm looking out the window. (Metaphorically, that is, I'm looking at real observations.) The predictions are wrong. Right now."
Who says that the cycle of change which we can actually see due to a slow response is not based on a window of 5, 10 or 15 years? Right now is an exception to the current trend? How can we verify this? Wait and do nothing?
"This is terrible science. You're asking me to believe in global warming, because burning gasoline is bad. Why not... explain why burning gasoline is bad, then act on that, instead? Why not talk about ocean pollution or overfishing and act on them directly, instead? While climatologists are distracting us with computer-modeled chimeras, real problems are being neglected."
Sure, but just because I want to state that Global warming is true or not I have to eliminate all the other bad factors which are actually happening?
Give me one environmental benefit why Coal/Oil/Gas burning is good? I am curious. Even if global warming is false, at least helps us to switch to renewable energy which will be better in the long run.
Lets suppose we find out global warming is false. What is the damage done by following ideas to limit CO2 and pushing environmental awareness?
"Start with the truth. Work out from there. That's science."
Good point. Did you see the reasoning of Rahmstorf in the Video? Do you think his reasoning is flawed?
We don't just punt money into Russia, Saudi Arabia, etc -- we exchange it for oil which we then use productively. By definition, if we didn't want the oil more than the money (or anything else we could get for that money) we wouldn't make the deal. How does it increase the total efficiency to coerce people into spending money on X instead of Y if when they have their druthers they clearly prefer Y?
You can make the argument that we are in a sort of local maximum and that in the long run, tolerating this inefficiency is worthwhile because it would lead to the changing of the surface such that we can find an even better maximum. Could be. All I'm saying is that it's complex and monolithic technocratic solutions are doomed.
The other problem that pervades climate change is the shockingly bad statistical analysis. At the least, there should be a separate statistical institute that can put its stamp of approval on the statistical parts of the results. With such limited historical climate data older than a very recent period, and projections made far into the future, we must ensure that only the very best statistical analyses make it into the public awareness. Alas, climate researchers are often not at the leading edge of statistics.
Is this a bad joke?! Believe?! What has believe to do with this?
Please if you don't know - watch this talk from Prof. Stefan Rahmstorf ( http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/ )
Video H264 720x576 Encoded http://dewy.fem.tu-ilmenau.de/CCC/25C3/video_h264_720x576/25... (From 12/2008, CCC Congress 25C3)
Information and further links about this talk: http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/Fahrplan/events/2863.en.h...
His job is to give scientific advice to people who need to make decisions on these Global Warming topics.
Global warming will destroy the sea, the animals, plants and finally us. Stop this whole argument of is this real or bullshit and read the research for yourself if you still doubt it.
Who needs money when we all can't go outside anymore because its 50 degrees Celsius outside?
With Science we make assumptions and lay them out for everybody to see or counter argument. After enough iterations of opinions and results we end up with something that gives us at least a high probability of being right.
Claim has to be followed by proof. Proof does not need believe as it stands by itself. If you believe it or not.
Not only that, but I heard that if not stopped, Global warming would make cats chase dogs, Jerry Springer would retire, and leprechauns would roam in large bands across the earth, spreading death, destruction, and lucky charms.