I love how anonymity engenders such honest commentary. When people aren't tied down to their reputation/ego, they are free to say what they really think.
I think anonymity is awesome. But, 4chan is often on par with YouTube in terms of the quality of its comments. Sure, there's some smart kids there (some younger friends of mine are regularly channers), and a few not-as-smart oldtimers who ought to have grown out of it by now.
Notice several comments spend a lot of time talking about the people who call out sexism (as white knights, for instance). They're the kind of sexist who thinks that because they don't believe they are sexist, when they say sexist things, it's not actually sexist. The same kind of racist that says racist things, but because they have a black friend who's totally cool with it, it's all good. The kind of folks that do this are mostly young, mostly white, mostly middle class, and mostly assholes who should stop and think before they speak, whether it is an anonymous forum or not. Racist/sexist/misogynist/homophobic behavior is racist/sexist/misogynist/homophobic, and 4chan is full of it, on a scale that no non-anonymous forum would ever be.
It's there because it's constantly stopped, and it should be there.
It's not about political correctness. It's about not being a dick. I've said nothing about saying controversial things...I've called out intentional attacks by people with power on people with less power. White kids calling everybody nigger isn't an important discussion that needed to happen to further the discourse on race in America. It's a bunch of privileged white kids being little shits and perpetuating and endorsing centuries of oppression.
So, yeah, anonymity is great. But, the culture of 4chan is often racist, misogynist, sexist, and homophobic. That's privileged people having fun reveling in their privilege at the expense of those with less power. I just don't see the appeal.
Obviously, I'm not suggesting censorship (or maybe somebody has assumed I am, since I've been downvoted a bit). I'm suggesting that the casual culture of oppressive language as it is used by the mostly white, mostly middle class, people on 4chan is a negative for the world. And, I'm pointing it out for what it is. It always gets wrapped up in, "You just don't understand, it's funny!" But, minstrel shows were considered funny, too. It doesn't make it OK.
If the facts don't agree with my opinions, I change my mind. But that rapidly pushes you into thought-criminal territory in today's world.
For example, I don't buy that racism is the sole reason for the underrepresentation of some ethnic minority groups in tech because other ethnic minority groups that have been historically oppressed and discriminated against are overrepresented in tech. But if someone posted an article about how "tech is racist" and I said "I'm not sure that tech is racist", then someone could call me a racist and I could lose my job if someone got offended.
So anonymity is essential for exploring non-progressive ideas and, I think, for getting closer to truth. There are lots of non-progressive/anti-progressive ideas that are plausible given the available evidence, but nobody will discuss under their real name.
But, I also think 4chan revels in its privilege, and many of its participants are pretentious enough to believe they are above gender and race and identity, when they're really just reproducing the same patterns white men have practiced at every point in history when someone asked to be treated equally. It doesn't mean they should be censored. But, I think people should feel empowered to call it out for what it is...but calling it out gets shouted down pretty quick on 4chan (I can hear the cries of "white knight" from here).
It's only because these views so rarely get challenged that it causes such a fierce response.
Source: I was one of those white guys who thought tech was a super great place where anyone with the skills could get ahead and there was no glass ceiling for women and their was no reason black folks couldn't do great in the industry if they just had an interest in tech. I recognize all this because I was there. I just wish I had a better way to help other people understand how their privileged position makes it very difficult for them to see and understand why the tech industry has both an extremely sexist and white supremacist culture.
You think you're not being a dick, but your sensitivity is blinding you. I've called my friends things far worse than what nigger objectively means, but the social constructs around it are so bizarre as to make it taboo, but only taboo in my context. Just like sex is taboo. Just like drugs are taboo. Just like homosexuality was taboo (and remains taboo in some areas).
Further, there's an aspect to 4chan you're not seeing, and it's how much they hate and punish the kind of narcissism you accuse them of. A net good.
I've seen openly homosexual people posting on 4chan about their lifestyles with absolutely no condemnation. It is not an exception to a rule. You have mischaracterized this demographic. Badly.
And, yet, 4chan spawned this:
http://jezebel.com/what-happens-when-a-13-year-old-4chan-cam...
And, this:
http://www.dailydot.com/society/adria-richards-4chan-raid-se...
And, this:
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/06/dear-inte...
I'm speaking of the culture of the place. Every individual user has the ability to not participate in some of the really awful shit that goes down...but, groupthink and a culture that celebrates the worst of it ("none of us are as cruel as all of us"), leads to some truly awful behavior. And, it is so often white males targeting women (and, worse, young girls).
People with privilege are rarely aware of their privilege, and 4chan is a great exhibition of that. It's possibly useful as a tool for seeing just how much people don't see how awful their community can be, and how much oppressive behavior is tolerated and celebrated. We've got thousands of years of oppression to undo. I'm calling it out, not because I'm "sensitive", but because I've had some of this shit explained to me...I've had my own oppressive behavior called out to me. And, now that I see it, and have begun to understand it, it's my job as a white male ally in a centuries-old struggle to call it out when I see it.
It's not white knighting, and it's not sensitivity. 4chan isn't hurting my feelings or making me mad. 4chan is just doing what white men have done throughout history: Enjoying their position of privilege to make fun of those with less power. And, I recognize it for what it is because I've done it, too. The only surprising thing about it is how much most 4channers think they aren't acting like every prior generation of white men in the face of being asked to treat women and people of color like equals. They genuinely believe they are a different breed, above race, and gender, and identity; all the while promoting the same old shit.
since when?
since they make good headlines?
Most people who get ousted are narcissistic 16 year old's. They just arn't sympathetic to a news reel, and almost always the instigating factor for 4chan going to town on someone is narcissism. Adria and Anita being two fantastic examples of such.
My sympathies to Allie though. Definitely not a smart life choice posting pictures of yourself for 4chan's amusement, shame such a choice can be made before you're old enough to make it.
You've been to 4chan before, right? I just took at look. I could point to a half dozen deeply disturbing threads happening as we speak. They are conversations being held predominantly by young white males about even younger girls, some of whom have had their real identity revealed by the creepy stalking that 4chan is so well known for.
"Most people who get ousted are narcissistic 16 year old's."
So, all 16 year olds, then. Every teenager is self-involved. Their brain isn't finished yet. That's no excuse for a bunch of grown men to wage war on them.
"Adria and Anita being two fantastic examples of such."
So, you believe what happened in those cases was a sane, rational, and fair response to someone saying something that 4channers disagreed with? You call them "narcissists", one because she wanted to make some videos about sexism in video games and she asked some people to voluntarily give her a few bucks to do it, and the other because she thought it was inappropriate to make stupid dick jokes at a conference attended by women and young girls.
See, here's the thing...you could convince me that Adria Richards could have handled that situation with more subtlety. But, the response of 4chan? You believe that was justified? I honestly have a hard time wrapping my head around that kind of mindset.
And, Anita literally did nothing to anyone. She wanted to make some videos. Don't like the concept of videos about sexism in video games? Don't contribute, don't watch them. That's what I did, and the videos never bothered me one bit because I never saw them (didn't need to, as I already knew video games were sexist as hell). Huh. How hard was that? In what world is it OK to wage war on someone for expressing their opinion? In that world, anonymous forums become the only place one can express an opinion without fear, because their are vigilante gangs standing at the ready to try to destroy you at the first sign that they might disagree with you.
That it's considered justified by so many within that community because of, I guess, how strongly someone disagrees with the opinions being stated, is disturbing.
If 4chan only went after people with power, I would cheer them on. Politicians? Hell, yeah, go for it. Tom Cruise? Fuck, yeah. Bankers? Why not? Abusive cops? I'm OK with that too. But, they often don't. They go after easy targets; they're often bullies (while absurdly wearing the badge of "standing up for the little guy"). One of the easiest targets is young girls, and 4channers go after young girls daily.
Also... if you think you've called your friends worse than what the n-word means and symbolizes, you clearly don't know much about the history of it.
You're really trying to say "Nier is just a taboo."?
>Some folks probably should feel tied down by their reputation/ego.
I'm pretty sure that implies that you don't want the "bigots" in your worldview to be able to express themselves anonymously.
My implication was that I opt out of such discussions, and I think (much) less of those who participate in casual sexism, racism, and homophobia.
I can also assure you that no one in that thread started with the idea to rile HN up.
Once that thread got bigger, I wasn't surprised it was posted here though. I can also say that despite it being totally illogical and pointless, there is a bit of showboating that happens on 4chan. So... take from it what you will, I doubt the intention of the thread is to make anyone on HN mad.
I don't get the impression anyone on HN is mad. Much of the commentary in the thread is entirely accurate, and many folks here at HN are pointing out the really funny and really accurate ones...and I've seen some of the same jokes here at HN in the past. And, I've had conversations with tons of folks about the Silicon Valley echo chamber; and there's serious discussion happening pretty regularly about what's broken about this culture we're in. A lot of it's actually quite funny.
But, even a thread about HN brought out some of the bigotry of 4chan. Not the bigots against the mostly middle class (or wealthy, or even filthy rich) white people on HN...that's irrelevant. It's not about people being mad, riled up, or outraged. It's just about calling people on their shit. I know it's senseless to do so on 4chan (I have more than passing familiarity with the place), but I can hope that HN is willing to consider the cost of continuing thousands of years of oppressive language and behavior and societal norms, and what that means for our community. I think we'd be better off with more women and people of color and LGBTQ people in our industry; people who casually make sexist, racist, and homophobic jokes do not agree with me, and they express that opinion freely...even here and on reddit, which are merely pseudonymous, casual use of oppressive language and support of oppressive behavior goes unnoticed or encouraged much of the time.
I see this kind of "shock" throughout the techy mainstreamy politcally correct communities. It seems to me that the people that take issue with bigotry are themselves somehow weak through some kind of insecurity manifesting itself as a desire to fix this perceived "injustice". Because, you know, muh feels.
4chan just doesn't care about your feels. It's funny to say this (see how I am distancing myself from 4chan to add validity to my argument?); but I do think more communities could learn something from 4chan in this aspect.
On a related note; I saw that outrage thread linking in the 4chan post about this black chick getting some dude fired and what not about a non-PC joke at a conference. Then, in the HN thread [1], to my pleasure, at least the top comments were mostly absent of the typical reddity/facebook etc. white knighting "This is why women arent in tech!" nonsense.
Being empathetic is a weakness?
Outrage is definitely a weakness.
I'm afraid I'm not following your logic. Care to explain further?
Basically, if I can get you to react with misogyny, I have a level of control over you.
"Trolling" is about power. People do it because being able to push somebodies emotions one direction or another lets them play with that person like a marionette. Making people upset is a power trip for trolls.
It would not suprise me if many (not most by any means, but many) trolls are in fact psychopaths who are 'practicing' in a way. Running low-risk experiments on how to control people.
The solution is not to innoculate yourself against emotional response. Trust, but verify. Be emotional and empathetic, but do your homework and don't be a sucker.
Such an approach would allow yourself to empathize with the targets of bigotry without exposing yourself to the hypothetical psychopathic affirmative action boogeyman. And I am far more afraid of decades of social justice being undone by the normalization of bigoted attitudes in society than I am of a few scheming manipulative social justice warriors.
Hey there, privilege.
"4chan just doesn't care about your feels."
Which is precisely why it's predominantly white males.
Gratuitous racial slurs are racist. But racial crime statistics are also racist. If a worldview is afraid of some facts, then it has some holes in it.
You can be anonymous on Hacker News very easily. Most people here are.
It's the lack of a karma system that is why people on 4chan post whatever they like.
You feel the same feeling even when contributing to 4chan, however, you know it wont matter for long thus it's far less mental weight to deal with.
Other people have since made sites that, as I understand them, boil down to "4chan for people that speak language X" (eg Krautchan (German), Ylilauta (Finnish)) which are themselves fairly popular and influential.
Beyond that, there are many small and interesting English-language boards that aren't "just for porn," but as krapp said, most aren't very popular, but tend to have tightly knit communities (as strange as that sounds, talking about an anonymous board) that I'd feel wrong drawing unwanted attention to.