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Comment by morgante | Hacker News Reader

I wonder what's the situation like for software developers and engineers? Equally dire, or would learning to program be a way out for them?

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There's plenty of IT jobs (software/system engineering, admin work etc.) but you have to know something. I interviewed people for intern and junior programmer positions (mainly Java devs) and they had no idea what an interface is or why we would use it. Ha! They had no idea about basic CS concepts, how the computer works etc. Yet they wanted to work at a place with one of the highest wages in the area. Well...

" ...or would learning to program be a way out for them."

In my opinion, not everyone is able to code. Not because it's some sort of exclusive club but because being a programmer involves thinking differently in order to find some sort of solution.

> In my opinion, not everyone is able to code. Not because it's some sort of exclusive club but because being a programmer involves thinking differently to solve problems.

Generally, I agree (having seen people who really can't do it continuously struggle through coding exercises). That being said, I'd be interested in hearing if people even try. Surely some could manage it.

Programming's not a panacea for everyone's problems, you know?

I mean, I get that you're just coming from a place of decency and trying to help, but suppose tomorrow every unemployed person decides to become a programmer - does that really help? Or does it just make the market for programmers worse?

I get that you're trying to help, but there are systemic problems to be resolved here.

> Programming's not a panacea for everyone's problems, you know?

Yes, I do. Obviously (and, from a selfish perspective, thankfully) not everyone is inclined or able to learn programming.

I'm more interested in how counter-cyclical programming is. Does it allow you to weather a tough labor market, or are young developers seeing similar difficulties in Europe?

You can find work as a young programmer, but the wages are way lower than before. $7/hour as a programmer with a BS is no fun. Before the crisis, a college grad would expect at least 3 times more in Spain, but I know a few experienced programmers who left Spain because they could not find any kind of job to pay more than €1500-2000/month.

Learning to program is always an option for anyone with an internet connection. It beats spending six years and $100,000 on a sociology Masters and then stocking shelves like the women in the article.

Speaking of which, these characters kinda deserve their fates by choosing such pointless career paths. Hopefully others will learn from their mistakes.

There are programming jobs for those that are decent. But I have noticed the wages have dropped a lot over the last ten years. Nothing like the amounts for jobs in the States.

They would be in the same situation, only earning much more money and be able to afford to fly back home every other weekend.

There's such a shortage here in Amsterdam that companies are hiring non-EU citizens (with all the visa crap that comes with it). There's lots of Southern European engineers here, but a lot more sitting back home whining about how bad things are.

This is why I don't feel awfully sorry for our young Southern friends. There's well-paid work a cheap two and a half hour flight away. No visas, no work permits and getting paid in familiar currency. Hell, the IRS will even throw in a 30% tax rebate for your troubles.

I don't know about Spain, but in Poland programming pays OK, and if you know anything you will find a job no problem.

On the other hand you can earn 4 times more in other EU countries for the same job. In my city Java/C# developer with a few years experience earns around 1000 Euro after taxes.

Many "dev bootcamps" have been cropping up in the U.S. I wonder if that is / will be a trend in Europe?

also, hope you're doing well Morgante :) - fellow '13

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