Ninja Sphere: Next Generation Control of Your Environment | Hacker News Reader

Ninja Sphere: Next Generation Control of Your Environment

kickstarter.com

83 pointspjl55 comments

I don't see mention either way of subscription/cloud requirements. If it isn't fully self-contained, then the risks out-weigh the benefits.

Edit: Drilling down to the ninja blocks pages I see mention of a "ninja cloud account" as being required to install drivers. That sort of unnecessary external dependency is a deal-breaker for me, essentially negating the entire value proposition of open-source.

http://ninjablocks.com/blogs/how-to/9555237-installing-drive...

I agree. Why not open-source the other software parts under some fairly protective license like AGPL for the server and Artistic License v2 for the client interface to the AGPL-ed server. These licenses adequately protect you from a commercial entity coming and stealing the mass market business opportunity or the community, while still making it possible to support individual hackers like Amadou that can contribute a lot, but won't unless it is open source end to end.

I don't wish to give the impression that hacking on the hardware is my goal. I could, but I'd rather not. The reason external dependencies are a problem for me is that they take away my ability to control my system. If I have to hack together something to use it without the servers, then that's a marginal improvement over having to reverse engineer the protocol on the wire, but it's still really customer unfriendly.

Anyone who buys this system and makes it central to their home's operation (as intended) becomes exceptionally vulnerable to the decisions of the people who control the servers. Even if the developers' interests always align with my interests, I'm still vulnerable if their system gets hacked, if they go bankrupt (and shut down) or if they are acquired by a company with a different management perspective.

It would be like buying a car that has to check in with Lexus every time I want to start the engine.

It would be like buying a car that has to check in with [ed: GM] every time I want to start the engine.

Isn't that called OnStar?

Agreed. I was, for instance, very excited about the new nest smart-smoke-alarms and just stopped reading and went away when I saw the first mention of my "nest cloud account" or "nest login" or whatever it was...

Thank god Sonos came out back in 2005 (or so) and was built without all of this nonsense - no doubt if it was released today there would be a mySonos web login account cloud identity blah blah blah...

Mandatory cloud connectivity is detrimental to the usability and security of an automation system. I, for one, will never add non-optional cloud features to my own automation products.

Some day I want to see more systems with a decentralized architecture, where cloud servers, if used at all, only help facilitate a secure VPN connection between the user's device (e.g. a phone) and the user's home network.

The code on the device will be open source. If you wrote something that made it easier to use when the internet was down (or you weren't connected at all) and sent a pull-request you'd have a good shot of it being accepted. When the backend is released as O/S too there will no doubt be some effort towards getting it running on the device itself.

I'm working with others on a FOSS toolstack that makes it easier to build decentralised systems. Take a look and let me know what you think. http://nymote.org/

All I get is a spinning blue dot. Your site is unfriendly to people who take their security seriously. That's not a good sign.

Thanks for the feedback. I don't understand your second comment though, how is it 'unfriendly to people who take their security seriously'? You can email me instead, if you prefer.

I'm guessing it doesn't work if you have javascript turned off, due to the unnecessary "splash screen".

It does look like you're addressing the right problems with "Signpost" and "Irminsule". Am currently reading your slides.

Pjc50 is correct. Practically every browser exploit over the last decade has had javascript as an essential component. Forcing users to enable javascript to use a site is a bad idea because it makes them more vulnerable. Javascript should be a last resort to provide necessary functionality that is impossible to do in any other way. If you want to use javascript for frills, that's fine as long as the frills don't become obstacles if javascript is disabled.

To put it into perspective, NoScript is the 4th most popular add-on to firefox.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/extensions/?sort=us...

Software like what you are developing needs to be designed with a strong security mindset from the beginning. It is a truism in the industry that security tacked on after the fact never works very well. I was extrapolating from the security naivete of your website design to the likely naivete of your software design.

Thanks, this is a helpful explanation. The site came from a template and I didn't think too long about the issue you mention (but I agree it's important [1]).

Regarding your final para, please be assured that the folks working on the software are 'best-in-class' and do have a strong security mindset as well as a deep background in internet systems. The software is the output of research work being done in the University of Cambridge and I made the site to try and showcase the work and provide more context around it. The front-end of the site may be lacking but that shouldn't reflect on the software we're making (though I do understand why people extrapolate).

[1] https://github.com/nymote/nymote.github.io/issues/10

WFM

Risk of what?

You can also just SSH in and 'git pull' a driver if you prefer =)

Hoo boy. This displays some of the worst excesses of infographic tyranny. Just look at https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/309/747/c057b01519ab....

Just look at it.

The fuck is wrong with a goddamn timeline?

Aside from that the device looks pretty cool, although it's only really useful if you buy a whole bunch of other smart devices.

I think the team is trying to emphasise the "Sphere aspect"...

That's just awful. You have to look in 4 different places to understand one data point.

If they really wanted to use a circle, why not a curved timeline? I've actually always visualized the calendar year as an oval. It would be so much clearer if the months were points on a circle.

Will it ninja-proof my home? Because we have a real ninja problem in my neighbourhood. Anything that can keep them under control gets my vote.

(Sorry. I'm just sick of this ninja-meme. I'm sure it's a wonderful product, and all that, but using ninjas to sell home-automation??)

I kinda connect it with Ninja-like capability of sensing environment conditions :) (in this case)

I'm digging all the new home automation stuff that's been coming out the past few years. I've slowly been starting my own collection of networked sensors and controls, reverse engineering the various protocols, and adding them to a custom dashboard. It's voice controlled (Chrome has a speech input JS API built-in now that makes building that easy), and responds to voice commands with dialogue from Star Trek LCARS responses (sound clips taken from the show and cleaned up). Lots of fun.

http://i.imgur.com/G4SYEiJ.jpg

That's fantastic! Do you speak into your smartphone or have you rigged your home for sound?

Tell us more about this project?

If your smart power socket blocks access to the neighbouring socket on a two-socket wall plate I hope the gods of product design SMITE YOUR DESIGN TEAM WITH GREAT VENGEANCE.

Please. Slim the design down if necessary.

Buy the "Ziotek ZT1212590 Flat 18-Inch Power Strip Liberator, 5-Pack" on Amazon.com. They are awesome for solving this problem. I'd post a link, but I know commercial links are frowned upon.

I'm still blown away that no one out there sells solid like 3 inch extension cords. I'd buy them in a second. It would also be awesome if they came in a 3-1 variety like in this image:

http://www.ac-powercord.com/products_img/UL_3_Conductor_with...

Wal-Mart has 8-inch ones in 3-packs (in store for like $6), which are actually just long enough since 1.5" on each end is the plug itself.

http://i.imgur.com/B4Tg2rP.jpg

I watched the entire video and I still have no idea what it is or does.

Me either; I came here hoping for the explanation.

My guess, from the amount of times they said "trilater-something", is that it uses radio waves and triangulation to figure out where people are in a home/office? Maybe?

It's essentially a home automation controller that bridges the many different monitoring and control protocols together with spatial awareness.

I cant watch the video but did you try scrolling down the page? It explains that it uses a series of sensors to keep you informed about your appliances, possesions and property.

eg. someone is moving your valuables around, or someone left the heater turned on with no one home.

Dan from Ninja here. That's what happens when you try and explain something geeky to a broad audience... but for the techies...

It's a powerful (same chip as beaglebone black) ARM computer with WiFi, BLE and ZigBee radios. Runs ubuntu. Everything open source. Almost all Node.JS.

It uses open source drivers to connect to devices and learns how they operate, building a model. If something is out of place, it notifies you and gives you context aware control. For example if nobody is at home and the heater is on, it will alert the last person to leave and give them the option to turn it off.

Key new tech is positioning with little USB powered dongles placed around your house and Leap-motion style (but simpler, no 3d hands) gestures for controlling lights, temp, etc.

Everything the NinjaBlock did, but all built-in (no more dongles for wifi etc).

Hope that clarifies a bit!

Is the service it runs open source so we can run it completely in our home?

Yes one of goals is to open source the entire platform.

What's the hold up?

I don't work for ninja blocks, but I'm familiar with this exact problem. It's not trivial to get the licensing right so that you maximize your economic potential, but still leave the option open for people to host their own setup.

They want to get rich and give the world maximal freedom. That's a hard problem.

Can I run it without it having a connection to your servers?

This is pretty much the only important question

It's very important, and the first one I'd be asking if I wasn't a Ninja.

Right now, no. But it's something everyone wants. The main thing standing in the way at the moment is that the rules engine runs in only the cloud, but we will make it run locally as well. It's just a timing/effort thing.

(and open-source will mean others can work towards it too)

I noticed XBMC listed, can I control it via gestures?

Dan. Would it be possible for you explain the gesture control more? I am confused as to where the sensor is located and what is the range and resolution of the gesture control.

You actually did a pretty good job with the copy right below the video, "Next generation control of your [home or office] with accurate in-home location data and a gesture control interface.". You should have focused on what it can do now and the vision of what it could become and then spent the second half on the open source aspects of it.

You could have also added a steady cam scene following someone around their home and watching their environment change with them. e.g.

Someone is sitting on the bed reading a book and the nightstand light is on. They get up and move to the door and lighting comes on in the hallway as they walk towards the kitcken lights turn on behind them until they get to the kitchen and get a snack. Then reserve the process until they get back to the bedroom.

This kind of stuff looks like the perfect application for Prolog. There are a lot of predicates to satisfy when determining when a nightlight should be turned on or the overhead light or whether to turn on music in the living room or not.

Yay, home automation in prolog. Answers each and every request with "No.". Can't wait ;)

If I remember the runtime efficiency of prolog correctly, you might just have to wait :)

Try "Yes, maybe more." ;).

The reward tiers make it sound like the optimum operating environment is a single-floor apartment. I live in a three-floor house with a basement. I use a single base station that covers my entire house. The reward tier that adds a second floor sounds like a lot of equipment... what's the challenge there and why is it so much more? Is there a square-footage per way-point estimate?

I love the idea and have been experimenting with my own designs but haven't imagined doing the positioning stuff in such a sophisticated way (let alone gesture controls... voice commands work for me so far). I'd love to pitch in on a project like this and let someone else do the work better than I ever could in my spare spare-time. I'm just curious if by "home," you mean, "tiny, controlled environment," like a condo or something.

Am I correct in thinking that EasyBulb, MiLight and LimitlessLED are all the same product but rebranded? What are your experience with these products? They seem like a very reasonably-priced alternative to Philips Hue but I'm concerned I might be getting into a 'buy cheap, pay twice' situation.

Similarly, are there any inexpensive but decent smart plug sockets available? (I should note that I'm in the UK, but I'm sure other readers would welcome US-specific solutions.)

And, same question for BLE tags - below ~£10 a tag would be awesome.

I don't believe the form factor makes much sense because it appears to take up more space then required and doesn't look like it has room for any indicator panels. Can we have a box?

Ninja Sphere looks very cool, particularly the RF-based location. Everyone who's ever lost their remote control wants a way to find it, or just do away with it entirely. It seems this could do both. The future of home automation is in ambient intelligence; things behaving correctly without user intervention.

[Obligatory self-promotion:] If you're planning on upgrading to the XboxOne, have an old Kinect lying around from your 360, and want to get a small part of the way right now to where these guys will get you in June, please check out the link to my startup in my HN profile.

I think this is a cool idea and I'm pretty sure something like this will exist in the future.

Can we all agree though that its time to start phasing out the use of the word 'Ninja' with everything? How about 'Ranger Sphere' or 'Knight Sphere' or just 'The Sphereamid' - thats a pretty neat word you guys came up with, go with it, enough with the 'Ninjas'

Their company name is Ninja Blocks. It makes perfect sense for them to build on that brand and put forth an association to carry along good will for this new project. They're not just calling it "Ninja" because they think it sounds cool.

This is a great example of how open source hardware can be sexy.

Case in point:

http://monome.org/aleph-detail/

I didn't realize having your wine moved was a pain point.

I guess you don't have teenage children and serious wine collection. Or an imagination.

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