Secondhand Vapor? Americans are Split on Public E-Cigarette Use
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Assuming that the intent of indoor smoking bans is to minimize the amount of smoke that is indoors, and assuming that e-cigarette use indoors is not causing an increase in illegal smoking indoors (why would it?), then I don't understand this specific concern.
Not to be overly crude, but so does my ass after I eat to much mexican food. So do my burps, after shotgunning a bunch of vodka-redbulls. As for visual byproduct.. would it be better if it were invisible? My behavior after too many vodka-redbulls is far more of a public nuisance, yet they still let me drink those indoors (actually, I am not allow to drink them outdoors. Weird.)
Anyway, I have a few friends who use e-cigs. Can't say I notice it. My hypothesis here is that people primarily get bent out of shape over e-cigs because they feel that the users are "cheating", and nobody likes a cheater. That or they forget what somebody actually smoking is like.
It's about common courtesy.
The question isn't "can I burp in your face?", the question is "can I burp indoors?"
Smoking or vaporizing is something that people choose to do for extended periods of time, and doing so in an enclosed space, especially many people doing it at once, can fill air in that enclosed space with the byproducts, which may be harmful.
If people drank something that made them burp constantly, permeated the air with the smell of those burps, and that vapor was harmful, then absolutely that should not be allowed (beer does not quite count; you don't generally burp continuously while drinking it, though it may cause an occasional burp, and it doesn't cause a lingering, carcinogenic vapor to permeate the space).
Edit: speeling on my phone.
I could also imagine that they could reduce the social pressure against smoking, as people would be seen happily puffing away on e-cigs which, from a distance, look an awful lot like regular cigarettes. Impressionable kids, people who have quit smoking but may be tempted to go back, etc. will now see smoking suddenly becoming socially acceptable again. Some people may see it and think that smoking is allowed wherever this is, and then light up a real cigarette.
There's a further sort of puritanical attitude that many people have towards smoking, I think due to the fact that it was so prevalent and so obnoxious for much of the 20th century. Much as some people have a puritanical attitude about drinking (and we still have ridiculous laws stemming from that), that attitude may persist about smoking even if e-cigs turn out to be much less obnoxious than cigarettes.
You have to remember, there are plenty of people who were non-smokers during the middle of the 20th century, when you couldn't go to a bar that wasn't saturated in smoke, where you had to breathe in secondhand smoke almost everywhere (even in the non-smoking section of restaurants, it would still waft over from the smoking section), where if you lent something to a smoker it would come back reeking of smoke. The idea of losing ground on the fight that was just recently won, of not allowing it in most indoor public places, makes non-smokers fairly anxious.
Now, if it can be demonstrated that secondhand vapor from e-cigs is perfectly safe, and that it doesn't permeate the air with the same foul smell, then maybe their introduction would be welcomed.
After all of the damage we've done over the years by rapidly accepting new technologies that wind up poisoning the air (see, for example, secondhand smoke, leaded gasoline, diacetyl, asbestos, the Great Smog of '52 and the continuing smog problems in Beijing today), we need to be less willing to simply assume that releasing something into the air we all breathe is perfectly safe, and instead only allow it once it has been demonstrated to be safe.
As far as I can tell, e-cigs only started becoming popular in the last few years. While I'm fine with people using them in their own homes or outdoors (since there's a certain level of concentration below which it's not worth worrying about anything), I'd be very skeptical of accepting them in establishments in which smoking is not allowed without further study.
All I'm poking at are what I do perceive to be irrational arguments against them.
Arguments like:
> "Impressionable kids"
Ban real cigarettes in movies and outdoors then.
> "people who have quit smoking but may be tempted to go back"
No special considerations like this are afforded to recovering alcoholics.
> "The idea of losing ground on the fight that was just recently won, of not allowing it in most indoor public places, makes non-smokers fairly anxious."
Their anxiety is irrational, indoor smoking is not making a comeback. If second hand e-cig vapor is a concern, it is an independent concern.
However, before I'm willing to support e-cigs in indoor public places, I would like good evidence from independent third parties about the safety of secondhand e-cig vapor. The problem is that there's a catch-22; this kind of information is hard to obtain without them being popular enough and acceptable enough to reach the same numbers of people in indoor places at approximately the same concentration as smokers, and for long enough for long-term affects like cancer and heart disease to become distinguishable. I'm not really sure the best way to address that kind of problem; of safely studying something that has the potential to be harmful in the long term, but also has the potential to displace something even more harmful.
It's literally harmless to the people around you. The jury is still out on what the health effects are of using an e-cig (but people can generally agree that it's probably not as unhealthy as tobacco), but there is 100% no health impact to anyone else. The exhalation is water vapor, which people normally breathe out anyway.
In conclusion, people are morons who make decisions from emotion and without facts.
They're not sucking down plain water vapor are they? E-cigs have nicotine cartridges for them, it would be silly to believe that the smokers lungs are grabbing all of that nicotine out before they exhale.
Which is, of course, what this whole thing is about.
Except it's not.
http://www.onlineprnews.com/news/268327-1349236060-new-eciga...
"Those few compounds that were found were at such minuscule levels that toxicology analysis detected no risk (cancer or non-cancer risk) to public health from environmental e-cigarette vapor."
"While secondhand smoke must be eliminated in workplaces and public places, the current data provide no justification for eliminating electronic cigarette use in these places."- Dr. Michael Siegel of Boston University School of Public Health
"For more than 25 years Smokefree Pennsylvania has been advocating indoor smoking bans. Based on the results of this study I see no reason for e-cigarettes to be included in smoking bans." - Bill Godshall of Smokefree Pennsylvania
"The results of this study confirm the findings of my last 4 years of research. E-cigarettes pose no discernible risk to public health." - Dr. Murray Laugesen - Public Health Medicine Specialist, Health New Zealand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cigarette
"In some e-cigarettes, "Tobacco-specific impurities suspected of being harmful to humans – anabasine, myosmine, and β-nicotyrine – were detected in a majority of the samples tested." It is not clear if these chemicals were detectable in exhaled vapour.
The UK National Health Service noted that the toxic chemicals found by the FDA were at levels one-thousandth that of cigarette smoke, and that while there is no certainty that these small traces are harmless, initial test results are reassuring."
So no, it does not appear to be so cut and dry. The whole issue is that it isn't, and some people have a problem with that concerning a product the user shares with everyone around them.
I guess my original comment about not hearing any FUD about e-cigs can be thrown out now.
Stating that it's the active ingredient in a household cleaner is a bit disingenious, I think.
Propylene Glycol is considered "GRAS" (generally recognized as safe) by the FDA. It is used as a solvent, as well as in aircraft de-icing fluid... As well as a food additive, in beauty product applications, and as part of many pharmaceuticals for drugs which are insoluble in water. Including in injectable drugs. (Yes, you can mainline this stuff.)
It's safe to eat and inject, it's non-irritating to skin, in rat studies where rats were fed as much as 5% PG in their food for 104 weeks no ill effects were observed. It shows no evidence of being a carcinogen or genotoxic.
Further, I'm a daily e-cig user, so I'm definitely not against it. You and evilduck brought the negative context to my comment - not me. Vote accordingly.
BTW, my wife pointed out to me yesterday that Febreze is not on the aisle with cleaning products at the market - they are located on the fragrance aisle with candles. Here's a link at Walmart showing the same logic: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Febreze-Air-Effects-Linen-Sky-Air-.... It's categorized as an air freshener. Febreze is evidently not considered a cleaning product by those who sell it.
Also, PG isn't really an "active ingredient", it's usually just a thickener or carrier.
Edit: no 'also'.
My prediction is if the FDA finds there's no increased risk for anything bad from eCigs there will still be a sizable percentage of the population that wants to ban them.
Setting aside the danger, it's quite obnoxious. It's a powerful, unpleasant odor to many people, and can trigger asthma attacks.
Smokers seem to believe that because they want to inhale something, everyone else around them must want to inhale it as well. Why do they think that?
Anyhow, if it is shown that there's no secondhand risk from e-cigs, and they turn out to be less obnoxious than regular cigarettes (I've never walked through a cloud of vapor from a bunch of people using e-cigs, so I can't say), then I would be happy to allow them. As long as they don't affect me, I welcome you putting whatever you want into your body. Heck, I'd welcome them if it meant not having the huddling smokers outside and pile of discarded butts on the ground. But if they are harmful, or if they do lead to obnoxious odors (and I find many perfumes offensive and wish those were banned too, so telling me that they are flavored or smell nice won't help), they should be treated similarly to any other form of smoking.
The smell each juice gives off is similar to the taste and dissipates really quickly. The flavours in my devices are currently "honeydew melon" and "tobacco+caramel" which has a caramel-ly smell.
As long as someone isn't blowing the vapour directly in your face you'll either barely notice, or it'll be like walking by someone that's wearing perfume or aftershave.
Strong approve
Approve
Strong disapprove
Disapprove
Neutral
It would make much more sense in the spectrum from negative to positive. It would also look like a bell curve on that particular graph. Strong approve
Approve
Neutral
Disapprove
Strong disapprove
This happened to the other graphs in this article too.If you need nicotine, use a patch or gum, not a device that may spew shit in the air. If you "vape" take that stuff outside.
Assault laws? I'm pretty sure blowing powdered peanut into the air is unacceptable once someone says they have a peanut allergy
i realize it's not a totally fair comparison given possible health implications. but as long as it's legal it seems strange to expect someone to leave a public venue on a stranger's preference.
My experience with vaping is not extensive, but so far I've stood right next to a couple of people and been unable to notice anything, and for reference, my reaction to cigarette smoke is a pretty significant headache pretty quickly so it's not like I'm unsympathetic.
Is there an actual problem, or are you projecting experiences from smoking onto something that isn't really the same experience?
(This is, BTW, an honest question, though I freely admit its nature is a bit hostile since I'm asking about whether your fears are "real" or projection. But I do mean it honestly, and if anyone else can speak up with a real negative experience, I'm all ears. But please make sure it's real, and not just a moral panic projection based on expectations.)
i guess asking someone to stop vaping is an option. but expecting them to comply is delusional, and the request would strike me as selfish and pushy.
i'll add that people vaping in places of congregation is sparse enough in NYC that i'm surprised anyone has even had the opportunity to be inconvenienced by it.