Meet the American Nomads of Walmart's Plentiful Parking Lots | Hacker News Reader

Meet the American Nomads of Walmart's Plentiful Parking Lots

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74 pointskposehn45 comments

I lived in my car for three months this summer in Palo Alto as we were getting a startup off the ground, then when I headed back toward the Valley a few weeks ago for startup school I decided to relive it all again - from sleeping in my car to showering at the YMCA.

On the drive over from Utah I stopped in Elko, Nevada to sleep for the night, and as I had before I found my "spot" in Palo Alto, I drove off into a less populous street, crawled in the back of my Civic and tried to look inconspicuous.

This time, however, I woke up to a police officer shining a flashlight in my window. After I explained who I was and gave him my license to look me up, he said, "Really you should just go sleep in the walmart parking lot." Since I had to go to the bathroom anyway, I decided to do just that.

It was after midnight when I pulled in, and there were probably a dozen cars and RVs in the darker section of the parking lot. Having lived in a car, it's pretty easy to notice the signs of someone who is set up for permanent residence as opposed to an overnight stay. I got out of there early in the morning, but I estimate 10 of the 12 cars in the Walmart parking lot in Elko, Nevada were occupied by permanent residents.

Go to any parking lot (especially hospital parking lots) late at night and look for windshield covers on both the front and back windshields, curtains or rods for hanging clothes, ultra-portable bathrooms or cars full of clothes, and you'll realize the nomadic and/or homeless population is much larger than you previously supposed.

Walmarts and hospitals--I'm going to file this new information away, just in case (you never know where life will take you).

Most Walmarts. For example, the Walmart in Williston ND had to chase everyone away because of all the problems they were having. Boom areas with housing shortages tend to have problems.

I'm not from the US but I plan on doing a cross country adventure at some point. Let me ask you this; If my vehicle of choice was a delivery van of recent vintage with an artistic decal of a well known soda brand, would that help with avoiding such encounters?

At worst I could claim to be an Andy Warhol fan, would that fly?

If you are stressed about it, there really are Walmarts pretty much everywhere. There's also lots and lots of campgrounds that are something like $15 a night (you can save that much fueling a smaller vehicle...).

Yes, campgrounds and also backwoods camping. Many of these are government run (state and national parks) and many others are privately run. If you want to live in the backwoods, most parks have rules you need to follow, such as moving your tent every so often, disposing properly of waste, restrictions on lighting fires, and obtaining hunting/fishing licenses (meaning: do not carry fishing rod without a license).

Also, on every highway there are rest-stops and trucker rest areas. Some of these have pay-per-use showers and most have a parking lot you can park overnight in and free toilets.

The national/state parks are beautiful and are very welcoming to visitors.

I think the worst thing that would happen is that you'd be asked to leave. I don't think anything worse than that could happen (though don't quote me on that).

I've done something similar one time when a minimalist surfing trip took a wrong turn. I learned that if you (a) have a car where the seat goes down flush with the trunk or hatchback (b) have a good sleeping pad (think REI) and warm sheets, then you can get a great night sleep and look pretty inconspicuous from the outside (no one can see in very easily since you're below the window line).

Also, placement within the parking lot is important, not too close, not too far away.

most cops or security guards will do is to tell you to move on, or harass you. my dad lived out of his car in LA for a while, and he said that you need to pick the areas in which you stay carefully - camping in the parking spot of Ralphs in Encino? Not a good idea, too many rich people around, means the cops are diligent.

Camping out in Walmart or in the back of strip mall carparks - not such a big deal.

WORD OF WARNING - you are to an extent at the mercy of whichever asshole in a uniform shows up - DO NOT HAVE DRUGS IN YOUR POSESSION. THis can make a "lets roust this johnny-live-frugal out of the neighbourhood" to "cuff him and book him".

My advice if travelling cross country - great to have a sleeper, but also buy a propane stove, some good camping gear, some fold up camp chairs and half a pound of sticky and make the most of the incredible national and state parks. There are many, and they are cheap.

half a pound of sticky?

Marijuana.

Honestly, that would not deter meaning from thinking you might be an eccentric meth head or worse, maybe even bolster the perception.

Define van. Some folks take that to mean the Mystery Machine from Scooby Doo, but locally soda/beer/etc is sold out of giant trucks, semis with trailers.

I think you'd have better odds with a tradesman's van/truck for some obscure service. Not a craft meth heads would be magnetically attracted to steal and fence tools like a plumber. Something unappealing like grease trap cleaning service. Or contents you don't want to screw around with, like an exterminator service.

You'll run into some interesting state laws about commercial drivers licenses, and registration of commercial vehicles. Just because you're sleeping in it, doesn't mean according to the cops that its not a commercial delivery vehicle that you've borrowed or whatever (who cares why) and as such both you and the truck should be licensed to actually deliver sodas for hire. Some states have weird laws. You may even be required to have a business license and business insurance to get the commercial vehicle registration.

A magnetic decal sign applied to a plain old van when stopped might be wisest. Can't be pulled over for something you're not displaying and when you're parked, unless you're about to get a parking ticket, no one cares if you're a properly registered commercial vehicle anyway.

Any tips on places to car-sleep in Palo Alto? I'm often hacking there late into the night and would appreciate any suggestions.

Get a monthly pass at hackerdojo.

In 2001/02, my family spent two years travelling around North America. All four of us lived in a bus-style Monaco RV. Instead of middle school, I was home-schooled by my mom. We drove as far north as Alaska and as far south as Belize and had adventures---it was a great time.

I just wanted to say: Walmart deserves credit for being very cool toward travellers. We spent many nights parked for free in their truck spots.

Walmart gets a lot of hate here in the bay area, but I really like them. If I may wax philosophical for a minute... I see Walmart as basic infrastructure. They are everywhere; they're always open; they sell everything, nearly at cost; they employ 2.2 million people, many of which would otherwise be on welfare or disability; and when you need a place to spend the night, even if you find yourself in Winnemucca at 1am with a 40-foot long vehicle and no RV park reservation--they're always there for you.

> many of which would otherwise be on welfare

I get what you're saying, but Walmart employment is (alas) very compatible with being a welfare recipient, and rather than preventing welfare, Walmart is actually subsidized by it (at least according to a recently popular theory).

The local Walmart pays better than the local grocery store or any of the small businesses on main street. There is a reason that so many apply.

better.. if they let you work full time.

Given the new healthcare law, no main street business is going to have full-time workers other than relatives. 29 is going to be it.

Sure, now that Walmart has crushed those businesses, it can afford to pay a little more than they can.

Those businesses are still around, it is pretty easy given what Walmart actually sells. Amazon is more a pain for a lot of those businesses.

The ones that are still around, are still around. There's been plenty of documentation of walmart's negative effect on small cities' retail, manufacturing and tax bases.

And that documentation would be (the manufacturing and tax base info would be interesting)? I see it quoted a lot, but I don't see much in the way of independent studies (and I am disinclined to believe union studies as much as I won't believe Walmart internal reports).

Walmart's practice of locating stores just outside of municipalities to avoid local sales tax affects sales tax revenues.

Got the statistics on that with the number of other businesses that followed the same strategy?

Alas, this is not something I actively research or claim to have expertise regarding.

Another view on "subsidizing Walmart":

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/06/10/if-the-we...

I see Walmart as basic infrastructure. Exactly. Its a like a fuel/food and gear depot. Best part is they all have identical layouts. You can shop 125k sq ft and find everything right in its place =D.

Some people love to hate Walmart (and poor labor practices give good reason). However, providing a space to sleep and not get arrested is an example of something that is probably good for the nation's poor (as well as RV enthusiasts). Apparently Walmart is also one of the first places that half-way house parolees can get a pass to go. If Walmart is acting a portal for transitional people to rejoin or create there own (harmless) society, that is a tangible social good.

I'm taking the cynical route here and think that it's more of a ploy to get even more customers into their stores. What does it take them to keep the lots open/secured? Is that more than the money they would get from those people who will have to get water, food and other supplies in the morning? Most definitely. Would it cost them to kick out people and possibly turn this into a negative media campaign? Absolutely.

ploy noun 1. a cunning plan or action designed to turn a situation to one's own advantage.

cunning adjective 1. having or showing skill in achieving one's ends by deceit or evasion.

Does Walmart have to be considered evil in literally every action? I'd fully expect they're hoping they will make some additional sales from overnight campers, I can't imagine this wouldn't be fairly obvious to any non-cynical observer of the situation. And why shouldn't they - they make a profit from regular non-camping customers, so I can't understand how making the same profit from people who just received a free place to camp out for the night could somehow be considered worse. Seems like a classic win-win situation to me.

Oh I wasn't saying that it's not a win-win situation, just that some of the comments were saying how Walmart was being generous and good, while a pretty simple benefit analysis tells us that Walmart is making real money off of this, which in the case of such a big player and their history as an employer, self-interest is the only driver that counts.

Walmart's biz model is to be open 24 hours. Its stupid to kick out people in the middle of the night who are going be be shopping during the off hours period. People sleeping in a walmart PL are not there taking up space in isle 7 during rush hour shopping hours. So, from that point, its a ratinal thing to do. But also from a cultural point of view, its more common than you think, in remote areas, to need to come in to resupply (with say camping gear, food, clothes, etc). And if Wally world can save these people (like hunters, campers etc) 100 bucks for a hotel, they're probably going to increase the chances of them spending that 100 bucks inside.

> "We sold everything we have and decided to find, as we put it, our American dream," says Josiane Simpson. She, Jared Holfeltz, and their son Gabriel are currently living out of their car.

The American dream is a delusion that makes people pursue wrong objectives.

To achieve the American dream, you must be asleep. ~Lama Surya Das

Notice that she said "our American dream," not "the American dream." She's not talking about a picket fence and a dog, she's talking about writing her own life's story.

I don't think it's the people living out of their car who're delusional.

I did much the same thing in Australia for nigh on 18 months. Good thing is, in the outback you can pull up pretty much anywhere, drive a little into the side of the road, watch the spectacular sunsets and go to sleep. Bad thing is, there are lots of brown snakes (deadly, but diurnal) and scorpions (very painful, nocturnal). In the big cities, I camped out near university campuses and truck stops for access to bathrooms etc. Most seaside towns have "surf livesaver" clubs with showers, sometimes with hot water. You could of course just swim in the ocean. I also fashioned a shower out of a hose that I would attach to the taps in public toilets if I was desperate for one. I miss that lifestyle.

This article doesn't seem to cover much but I'd be curious to know the implications of this. Is this very common? How long do people stay? Are these people making trips or living there? I've heard a lot about crime occurring in Walmart parking lots, does this have any effect?

"I've heard a lot about crime occurring in Walmart parking lots, does this have any effect?"

My parents RVed around the country when they semi-retired and occasionally got stuck at walmart (Reservations? Sir I am sorry but I have no record of you ever having made reservations... etc)

Real criminals like empty lots and good numerical odds, so its extremely dangerous to be in a deserted shopping mall lot completely alone except for the crooks at 3am, or at a park all alone, or anything like that. Its not just walmart, some campgrounds are pretty sketchy during the empty work week. On the other hand trivial "crime" is much worse at walmart if by crime you mean "turned the radio up a little too loud at 8pm to cover sound of having sex" which might technically be a noise violation, but its not exactly armed carjacking or murder.

RVers talk a lot to other RVers and from what I heard from my parents, the culture is very bovine, stay in the herd for safety. The more people in the lot sleeping, the safer the lot is by definition. You have to have serious guts, or be a police sting, to be the only vehicle in the lot.

I would imagine the homeless are about the same. They want/need a good nights sleep and a screaming crime victim is not going to help them sleep, so there's more than a little self policing. There's ten guys here sleeping every night, and tonight there's one outsider checking door handles and prowling, well, there's going to be ten really pissed off guys if the interloper succeeds, so you do the math on what happens to the one interloper...

There is also a lot of bias in that RV national park touring means visiting civilized rural areas not uncivilized urban areas. So that means a lot of hunters and concealed carry and an armed society is a polite society and all that stuff. So a rural Idaho walmart parking lot where 10% of the people carry is likely near infinitely safer than a Chicago walmart in the bad part of town where all the victims are disarmed. As such my parents experience visiting national and state parks may not be representative of urban ghetto walmart parking lots. The experience of a cow herd in the presence of wolves varies greatly if some random selection of the cows have razor sharp teeth and pointy horns vs a herd where everybody knows all the cows are completely defenseless so go have as much "fun" as you want.

I applaud Wallmart. They have been allowing this for awhile.

I'm an engineering tech (land development) who lost nearly everything in the crash. I "lived" (slept) in my truck, which has a custom cap made for the purpose, for four months this spring. It's not a cheap way to live. It takes fuel to get food, to take a morning dump, to go to a place to park for the night. If you're not somewhere you can cook, you're stuck with carry out. Still, it was an experience I in no way regret. I learned a lot about myself, which, for me, is a spiritual thing. (See other comment about "Sleeping the American Dream). Here are some tips: Pennsylvania numbered roads (PA & US) all have pull-over spots; I was never once harassed by the police in these places. The Potomac River, due to the National Park proximity, is absolutely to be avoided. Interstate rest stops are only good for one night at a time. There are also what I call "late in - early out" spots everywhere: bars with off-street parking, hotel lots, repair garages, state forests with hunters parking. A little imagination will give you other ideas. I've over-stayed my welcome with a friend (while I developed an idea that I could not seem to market successfully.) and will be back to daily pay ($42 a day) and sleeping in my truck for the winter. Its not really that bad. It can actually be an adventure at times; it all depends on your attitude.

I've slept in Walmart parking lots more than a few times on my extensive road travels. There are few choices for brief naps out on the road, and while still somewhat dicey Walmart is safer than rest stops or random roadsides. If it's after 4 am, hotels won't even rent you a room (too close to checkout time, they say. And why can't they just let you check out at say, 6? Or a steady 15 hours after checkin?).

My folks RV half the year. Walmart is their one night stopover destination of choice. There are books out there that tell you which Walmarts are best to stay at and the love it for quick grab some sleep before pushing nights.

They make great rest stops too. Dad hops in back to get a nap while mom heads inside to do a little shopping or get some food at the deli counter.

In picture three, that chick in the green shirt is pretty hot.

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