One big difference between PUA culture and startup culture is that the former is generally more expressly proud of its misogyny.
But "here comes the shaming language" ...
Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years.
EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water.
Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
See, here, where you gender stereotype "women" (and not a subset of them) as equivalent to "the PUA community", that's a good illustration of the problem right there.
> EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever.
Lots do, but, no, not every single one does. (Leaving aside for the moment whether the things you describe are actually PUA-equivalent.)
> It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water.
Actually, they do notice it. For some women, its part of the reason they buy the magazines (though, usually -- unlike for self-proclaimed members of the "PUA community" -- not usually a point of pride.) For other women, its a source of entertainment, something to laugh about (either among each other or with male friends.)
For other women, its part of the reason they object to many mainstream women's fashion & lifestyle magazines as reinforces of patriarchy and traditional gender roles.
But what is certainly not true is that they don't notice it.
> Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
No, only when they proudly label themselves as members of a community whose very name is about using whatever knowledge or skills they have to manipulate women into sex.
You can't really be surprised that people react to the labels you choose for yourself.
"Negging" is a negotiating tactic and you have failed to show how it is linked to misogyny in any way, shape or form.
FWIW, to be accused of misogyny is really offensive to me personally.
is this usual outcome?
What makes you say that? He's not the one throwing names around. What would constitute "reacting well" in your book? Agreeing with you?
All I'm doing is pointing out that being "negged" just seems to be making him quite defensive and angry. I thought that having his self-esteem be reduced should make him more sexually appealing and available - but that doesn't seem to be happening.
A neg is more or less exclusively meant to be used on women who are exceptionally attractive AND who have an enormous ego because of that. It's meant for women who are always surrounded by fawning men who cater to her every whim because she is beautiful. Especially in an environment, such as a nightclub, where come-ons are frequent. And even then, it usually needs to be very subtle, used in context with as light a touch as possible.
Right, but in practice it doesn't work like you seem to imagine it does.
A handful of feminists are accusing him of hating women for wanting to be more attractive to women. Nothing's new.
Just because people aren't standing up to a handful of feminist bullies ("fedorable"?) doesn't mean the community here doesn't like him. It just means that don't want to pick a fight.
I accept their rationalization might be different. But it always is. Everybody thinks they wear a white hat.
Its called Earth, where using ability to sexually manipulate women as the yardstick to measure your personal development is, for reasons which should be quite obvious, seen as misogyny (or, more precisely, objectification of women.)
Is it impossible for there to be such a thing as pick-up artistry amongst members of the homosexual community? I bet it's just a magical thing that happens in the LGBT community, where courtship is preternaturally effortless. Perhaps, it's not even a learned behavior, to attract sexual partners?
Are heterosexual women incapable of manipulative behavior? Is there no such thing? ...but if that's true, wouldn't that damage any purported premise of equality?
mi·sog·y·ny məˈsäjənē noun 1. the hatred of women.
misogyny n. hatred of or hostility toward women.[2, emphasis added]
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny