Can I fire someone if I don't like them? | Hacker News Reader

Can I fire someone if I don't like them?

18 pointstesting90124 comments

I'm looking to dismiss an employee (5 weeks in; still in probation) who I have trouble with. This is a bootstrap startup.

Performance wise, the employee is doing an above average job. However, we have a lot of personal conflict. These conflicts drain a lot of energy from me which I cannot afford to lose because I need my energy and focus to run the entire company. I lost a lot of productivity because of the stress.

Ethically and legally, I understand it is not the employee's fault if I have conflict with them. As result, I'm willing to offer severance (one or two months of salary) just to ship this person away even though it is not required by the law.

I will be consulting with an employment lawyer on Monday. I just want to hear what you guys think about the situation.

For the sake of my startup and my own well-being, should I terminate this employee and offer some severance (not required by any law)?

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Just don't do anything as a surprise - make sure the person understands the possible outcome - and give her enough time to reflect your position. She might think that she's doing good for the company, even if she have to argue with you, and she might be actually right, but at the end, it is you who is paying so you're the client - so make sure the service provider understands what are your needs - including things like "don't argue with me, even if you're 100% sure my decision will harm the company".

You mentioned personal conflict - so this might be arguing on some irrelevant subjects. Even in this case, it might sound odd for her but she should clearly understand your PoV - "Justin Bieber is better than Led Zeppelin, if you disagree vocally, I'll fire you!" - again, this might sound odd to her, but it depends on her compensation package whether she accepts your conditions or not.

I'm astounded that this was downvoted by someone. Anyone who has founded a company and hired employees would recognize this as good advice. The old HN? Mostly guys who have experience in this area. The new HN? Apparently it's mostly people who have no experience in this area.

So dumb question - have you taken him/her aside and explain your issues? I don't want you to go through each and every issue/problem but have you discussed in private the problems you've had?

I can only tell you what I've seen in the past, but I think best practice is to have a private talk with the person in question and then provide the issues you've had in writing, signed by yourself and HR. I'm not an HR/legal expert, but I believe having those issues documented in writing is important from a legal standpoint.

And if you have not discussed things privately then I would advise to go that route. You did not say if you made these comments (like about being late) in public or private but I would try to minimize the shaming that a public criticism would bring if you did it in front of other people.

I assume you've already weighed how hard it can be to find tech skilled people in this economy and what it will be like to replace them. They're only 5 weeks in so there isn't much tribal knowledge this person has just yet. At the very least write down the issues, tell that person they are doing above average work but the problems they are causing is hurting the team and morale. The "it's not you its us, here is your severance" seems like a smart route as well. But please consider the documentation of issues for legal purposes, and try to get a feel for their response. If it is still hostile or resistant then you might have to let them go.

Ethically it's not how things should be done in the business world. This won't be the last time you come across an employee or client you won't get a long with. It happens and it can be toxic for the work environment and other employees.

A couple months severance pay is a nice gesture. I would explain to the employee you think they are great and highly talented, but you feel as though they are not the right fit for team and environment. Acknowledge conflicts, but whatever you do, don't go pointing fingers and shifting blame.

Amicably end the employment and offering a couple months severance pay will ensure that it definitely ends amicably. Most people don't find themselves in a situation where an employer is willing to compensate for things the employee cannot change.

Thanks DigitalSea. To confirm, I should do whatever it is the best for my business and not being overly concerned by guilt?

I'm not an employer, so maybe I do not have a good perspective on this. But, as a business owner you probably depend on this business financially, perhaps you have family who depends on the business, and perhaps you have other employees who like working there. So it seems the choice is between upsetting one employee, or you can upset all those other people by not having your business run as efficient as possible. So I think your guilt would be multiplied if you upset all those other people.

You didn't state what the personal issue is, I hope it's not something that's protected under discrimination laws.

The only thing I would add, is rather than saying the issue is with team fit, take ownership and admit that the problem is that the two of you don't get along, and give your rationale that the conflict simply reduces your effectiveness running the company.

Honesty and doing things right is the best way to avoid guilt and to keep the bridge of a professional relationship intact. This is a person who might be a good fit at a later stage in the company's development or someone who might feed a better candidate your way.

Heck, one day, the employee might offer you a job.

If they are still in the probation period and haven't signed an employment contract then I don't believe you are legally bound to pay them any severance but IANAL and the rules vary widely by jurisdiction. Check with an employment lawyer before doing anything. You won't regret spending that money.

I would not recommend trying to buy yourself out (i.e. pay to relieve your guilt). Save the cash for your business and do only what your lawyer says you have to do. There's a chance this employee will see it as a sign of guilt or weakness and try for more. It happened to me.

If this employee does good work but is toxic to the work environment, you might want to suggest a contract arrangement instead of full time employment. You could pay him to take on well defined tasks (offsite) and keep the interpersonal interaction to a minimum. That way you keep the talent but lose the friction.

Add "good communication skills" and "plays well with others" to your job description for the next round and tighten up your employment contract to provide for a probation period where any party can terminate within the first N days. You write up the conditions but get an employment lawyer to help you draft it into something legally enforceable in your jurisdiction.

Sorry if I offend anyone, but I would be ruthless: warning probably before taking any action. Money is a limited resource and you need to spend it building something cool: both product as employees. Remember if you're getting drain out, the rest of the employees are or some of them will be in the same situation.

Paying someone to drain you off is not what anyone would want nor the nod-like person. One thing is having someone who may play devil's advocate and a totally different story is having someone who has an attitude and manners problem.

Hire slow. Fire fast.

If you're in a right-to-work state, the law says you don't need much reason. Either party can terminate the employment agreement, at any time, for any reason.

Anyone can be trained for skill, "fit" either happens or it doesn't.

Like some of the others have suggested a couple month's severance is a nice gesture... and doing that is certainly a LOT cheaper than keeping someone around who you either don't get along with, or isn't contributing to the business.

Okay, so I can't edit this... but I got a snarky email from someone saying it was hard to take my advice seriously.

I had the "at-will employment" and "right-to-work state" concepts backwards.

The simple fact of the matter is this: in the US there is very little in place to protect the employer/employee relationship. If an employer wants to let you go, for almost any reason... it's pretty easy to do so. There is no contract, to speak of.

Contrast this with Europe (where I lived for 2 years, so my speaking of it isn't just theoretical) where you sign a contract of definite length with an employer... and the employee has way more protection and stability than what is here in the US.

Disclaimer: IANAL and I am not HR. I learned these things from people I worked with and talked with over there, so I may have all the particulars right.

I'm a tech employee bootstrapping something on the side.

Once I worked with a co-worker who had an absolutely brilliant mind. He was a perfectionist, and came up with stunning solutions to write fast code in PHP (imagine that!).

Unfortunately, he would constantly break the API he exposed to us, creating weeks worth of work for all of us. When told our needs, he would argue and argue and argue, creating even more work. He would never listen.

Yes, I believe our team would have been better off without him, and I also believe that there is a niche somewhere that is perfect for him. I hope he found it.

About a year later I got fired in a different team. The lead would write kilometers of spaghetti code fast, and measured productivity by hour fast you can solve problems. It never occurred to him that it is a bad idea think it is fast to keep solving problems that might never have come up if you put a little more thought into your work.

I immediately got another job at startup where I'm half architect half developer, work just with the CTO, and essentially keep doing what I think needs to be done unless I hear anything different, which rarely happens. It's a darn paradise!

I found my niche.

So, by all means, don't force something that just isn't going to work. There is such a thing as giving up too quickly, but all the thought and consideration you're putting into it and your willingness to give him severance are strong indicators that you are not taking this lightly.

I admit it hurt to get fired. A lot. It took me a while to get over it. But I did. That's life. Shit happens. It's grave. But you can do something grave ethically as long as you know it's grave and treat it accordingly. Which you are.

As an added thought, if you were firing him for questioning your technical decisions, I would advise you to reconsider. Also, if he had said "I'm sorry I'm just a mess before 11 o'clock and I always miss the bus", I would advise to work out some kind of solution. But if he's just a darn pain to be around and doesn't seem to notice or care, that's just plain inconsiderate. If I ever heard of a good reason to fire someone that's it.

By the way I felt compelled to share all this because it moved me how conflicted you are about firing someone...

> However, we have a lot of personal conflict.

A long time ago, my first 'IT' job, and it came time for my first rating. I got marked down, because, per our supervisor, 'Sergeant P. had problems with you a few months ago'.

He never said anything about it. It was just 'do this' or 'do that' and I did those things to the best of my ability. He .. never .. said .. anything. How could I correct whatever it was that bugged him about me if he didn't _say_ anything.

I _still_ remember how damned irritating that was, twenty-three year later.

You spent some money, and time, hiring this person. Talk to her about whatever it is that is causing the conflict. See if you can resolve it.

Manage your guilt by making sure you have had a frank, honest conversation with the person. Not by throwing money at it. The money may seem like a small amount now but bootstrapped generally means strapped, and you will regret it in 6 months if it wasn't 100% necessary.

Make sure you aren't doing this for some protected class reason, not saying you are, just obviously that is a way different situation.

Don't let anyone convince you to put up with an asshole just because they are smart. This is one of the worst decisions you can make. I don't care how smart someone is, if they aren't able to work on a team or work constructively with you get rid of them and do so quickly. And don't try to isolate them, this usually makes the problem worse and again causes you or someone on your team additional work to manage a specialized work breakout, not doable when you are small and bootstrapped.

If this was my situation I would likely go down this path. (But make sure you check with the attorney if you aren't sure/aware of the laws in your jurisdiction.) Sit with the individual and have an honest above board conversation (no finger pointing, name calling, etc) and say something to the affect, you are super smart and talented which I respect, but the situation as is can not continue because I do not feel it is in the best interest of the company and also feel it isn't good for you or the team (team to be). So if we can't come to some middle ground, it is best for you to find someplace else to be quickly. But leave the door open to the person wanting to change. Sometimes passion is misunderstood, or mistaken as someone being an asshole when they are really just trying to fight for the company.

My own complaint about some of the advice I read here. Don't worry about what might happen/not happen in a month, fix the problem you have today. Not that you should go blindly, but worrying about what could/couldn't happen just paralyzes you in fear and means you will fail. Any decision is better than no decision, either do it or make the commitment to fix it, but don't allow status quo to continue as it is obviously affecting you. From what you wrote I think you already get this, but just a point.

Take them out for lunch, talk to them and try to understand why they are the way they are. You said they are doing an above average job, what more could you ask for. It could be because they are new they are just trying to make there mark but going the wrong way about it.

You could fire them and hire someone else you get along with but what if this person needs help doing even the simplest tasks. You dont want to spend the day wiping there arse. You would soon be wanting the other guy back even though they annoy you slightly.

The hardest thing a person can do is to accept another person exactly the way they are.

I would say there is something to be gained from conflict. It is easy to find people that will nod and agree.

Hi ibstudios,

I understand what you said. I love when people disagree with me because I always learn from them. However, what happen with this employee is completely different.

For example, the person was 30 mins so I asked this person to be on-time. This person then said "why are you targeting me when so-and-so is always late as well?".

This person is only 5 weeks in but has an attitude to deflate responsibility and bringing others into the discussion.

Perhaps a remote work setup would be better for you both.

Was this person right? I ask this because the other thing you need to think about is how this action will be perceived by the other employees. Will they think you treated this person unfairly? Will they resent having to take over this person's workload until you find a replacement? If so, then you may want to consider if getting rid of one person is worth poisoning your relationship with the other employees.

Ultimately, the decision is yours alone. Make the decision and won't worry about validating the decision with a random internet audience.

If that's the reason, then I don't see a case for ethical issue. It's you who have the biggest stake in seeing your start-up get up and running.

Thanks ethana. To confirm, I should do whatever it is the best for my business and not being overly concerned by guilt?

(not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)

Offer severance if (and only if) they resign. You were going to offer it anyway, but now it actually buys you something.

You would rather work with below-average employees who always agree with you, even when you're wrong?

Learn to get along with the guy! This will save you money and be good for your business!

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