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Comment by smalter | Hacker News Reader

It's good to know how lawyers overcharge, but it's better to find a trusted lawyer who you don't have to worry about.

We work with Yokum Taku and Jesse Chew at Wilson Sonsini, and they've been awesome.

Because I'm a former lawyer, I started out our relationship by scrutinizing every bill.

I stopped when I realized that we were getting an amazing deal. We have only paid 1 legal bill in 2 years and we haven't been bugged at all about it. Our legal bill is being subsidized by your Airbnbs and the like. That's the luxury of working with a great startup lawyer that works with top startups.

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This is important advice. Spend time finding someone you trust and that you feel comfortable talking to. You won't run into any of the unethical things mentioned in this post with a good attorney. In fact, some of those things are against the rules of professional conduct.

Another important point: You can always negotiate your bill. It is very common to pay less than the billed amount.

Full disclosure: I'm a former WSGR attorney. Now a WSGR client.

"Spend time finding someone you trust"

Sounds very "find a good lawyer".

How do you find someone you can trust? Or do you mean someone who appears trustworthy?

Also noting that the parent comment says that they stopped checking the bills. There are cases in business where people know this dynamic and once they aren't being checked they tend to take more chances. Hence even the person who relates "he is great and I trust him" may not be aware of what is currently happening with billing (if they are not checking).

I'd recommend taking introductory meetings with several attorneys. You should be able to quickly get a sense of what kind of person you're dealing with. Then check references. Yokum, for example, has a lot of clients who will say nice things.

The traditional and probably best way to find a good attorney is through your network of people you trust.

I agree that that is the standard and typical advice that people follow.

But people tend to, in addition to doing the subjective "good work" [1], they refer people that they like personally or who encourage the type of relationship building that leads to more work. [2]

Also, in theory at least, if an attorney ends up being referred a great deal and has a nice book of business they would raise their rates and/or push work off on subordinates, right?

[1] And how, with legal work, do you know if it's "good" until the shit hits the fan or there is a problem?

[2] Even physicians are susceptible to this (but less so). I don't want to know who you like personally or who you know but who you think does a really good job as a clinician. And maybe you hate that person or their personality. That's fine. I just want someone who is good I don't care if you like having him over for dinner. (Had a girlfriend once whose father was a surgeon and they were always entertaining the family practice doctors so they could get referrals. He was a jerk to his family but he was sweet as sugar to the other physicians who he needed.

I'd say, try to identify people in your network who are sophisticated legal clients, who have engaged substantively with a number of attorneys over time, especially if they themselves are also attorneys. They should be able to distinguish attorneys who do great work and make their clients happy. When they recommend an attorney, ask for details about what impressed them with that attorney's work and service.

Agree. The way I identified my attorney was by asking someone who wrote a legal blog (this was years ago) in my industry (blog writer who was a tenured law professor) who they would recommend. They gave me several names.

The attorneys he referred was from personal knowledge of what they had done for clients as well as their own interactions in the past (was a federal prosecutor).

I didn't know the person who wrote the blog (at the time) just cold emailed for some suggestions.

The problem with this traditional method is that it relies on the judgement of people who are not legal professionals.

If my friends and cofounders tell me "John S is an excellent programmer!(or marketer, or designer)" I cna trust that. They know the industry, they know the skills, and can formulate informed opinions.

If those same people tell me "John S is an excellent attorney!", I can't trust it. They don't know anything about the legal profession other than the bill they get. They don't even necessarily know what to look for to indicate that John S is an untrustworthy git .

Problem is that bootstrapped startups can't afford big names like Wilson Sonsini.

Any recommendations for cheaper alternatives that still offer similar quality?

If it's a routine incorporation and note financing, try Clerky.

Yokum's personal site startupcompanylawyer.com has a ton of useful "self-help" information too. It's a great resource.

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