Inside the World's Greatest Keyboard | Hacker News Reader

Inside the World's Greatest Keyboard

pcworld.com

84 pointsjseliger75 comments

Buyer beware. I used an M for a few years and it got me in the habit of pounding the keys, which has led to some pretty serious RSI.

Before the M I used to type far more delicately.

Keep in mind that the M was designed so that secretaries who were used to clunky mechanical typewriters could make the switch to computers. Nostalgia for the M is as misplaced as wanting a hand crank starter on the grill of your prius.

Maybe—but I've been using a Model M or Tactile Pro for years and haven't had this problem.

How do you know the particular style of keyboard led to the RSI and not some other factor?

I think it was the M b/c I used to enjoy making the keys make that nice satisfying sound and so I began to type far more loudly, as if each keypress was intended to make noise.

Same here (albeit with a somewhat newer model of IBM keyboard). I switched to one of the new Apple keyboards, and I've been recovering ever since. Pity the keyboard layout is so damn unusual on this thing, though. Configuring it for Linux was a real pain.

They make an identical sound however hard you type, since it's caused by the instantaneous buckling of a spring.

true, but the keys then make a resonant sound which sounds best if you strike with a strong, swift motion.

Nostalgia is behind some of the hype, but I think durability is the bigger advantage. The sound and feel of the keys is subjective, but durability isn't. Granted, no one really needs a keyboard to last 20 years, especially at today's prices, but it's definitely impressive.

I wonder whether it's greener to build 1 keyboard like a tank or n cheap keyboards and keep replacing them.

I suggest reading "The Mindbody Prescription" by John E Sarno. Here is an overview of what it talks about: http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc (I know it's a Word doc, but that is the best overview I've seen)

It helped me recover 100% from what I thought was "RSI" and I no longer believe that typing can cause injury.

I bought a Unicomp Model M a few years after this recover, not for nostalgia, but to increase my typing speed and accuracy, which it did. The only downside is that it is loud.

I'm a longterm RSI sufferer, now largely recovered, and I while I agree that there is certainly something to the theory that stress and reduced blood flow is part of the problem, it seems to me that he's overstating his case:

"To be perfectly clear: in TMS theory, the cause of pain is not the structural abnormalities (tendon or muscle tears, tissue inflammation, herniation, degeneration, decrepit muscles, etc) or behavioral “problems” (poor posture, a bad ergonomic setup, improper typing habits) typically identified by medical practitioners. None of them are responsible for the pain – none."

My personal experience readily invalidates this. I can type for a full day on my Kinesis Advantage practically without a problem these days, but if I sit with the Macbook for a day, I can certainly feel the strain. Doing that for 2-3 days will bring back quite a lot of discomfort. Why would I all of a sudden have more unconscious stress just because I moved from working at my desk to the couch?

That experience doesn't invalidate what he says, in fact its right in line with it. I suggest reading his book to fully understand it. Here is my take on it (which probably doesn't explain things as well as the book does):

Your belief is that the Kinesis keyboard causes you no discomfort, but the Macbook keyboard does. You've conditioned yourself to react this way; and your subconcious mind is fully aware of what is going on and is orchestrating the reactions and exploiting your beliefs so that it can cause distractions. The distractions are to prevent repressed emotions from surfacing. The actual physical reaction is real (oxygen deprivation to the areas), it's not "all in your head", but the root cause is psychological. The mind is in control here.

There may be some physical component to it. It may actually be more strenuous to use the MacBook keyboard than the Kinesis keyboard. Or in my case, slamming my fingers down aggressively on an arcade-style game controller for an hour probably could cause some discomfort. But that doesn't mean it will lead to a long-standing injury or chronic pain. Your subconcious mind will use the knowledge of what you think causes discomfort.

Of course you should see a doctor to rule out things like multiple sclerosis. I had been to many different doctors and tried various alternative therapies as well (such as acupuncture), and tried different ergonomic changes (including the Kinesis contoured keyboard), all which did not help me. So I was in a position where I was open to trying anything that could help me, and this was the only thing that did.

I see what you're aiming at, but I'm skeptical. I'm happy it worked for you, though. The thing that helped me was http://www.triggerpointbook.com/

This is totally fascinating. Would you care to share more about your experience and how you cured yourself?

I have been meaning to finish writing some blog entries that detail the whole thing. If you're interested here they are in their not-ready-to-be-published form:

Short version: http://www.nileshk.com/node/73 Long version: http://www.nileshk.com/node/71

I've been meaning to finish editing these entries for a while, so I will try to do that sometime soon. If you'd like me to notify you when I've finished them, you can e-mail me at hackernews /AT/ nileshk.com.

The "long version" doesn't talk much about how I actually cured myself yet, but really details everything that lead up to it. But really, there wasn't much to the actually cure. I read the outline that I linked to, and it just made sense to me. I immediately read The Mindbody Prescription and it was like it explained everything that I had been experiencing and why it happened the way it did. After I finished reading it, I immediately just started trying to go back to normal and doing the things I do without restrictions. I started repeatedly telling myself "there's nothing physically wrong with me." After a week my pain was almost gone, and I told my employers that I'm ready to start working full time again (I was working part-time at that time). A month later I was completely back to normal, typing without pain and without fear of the pain returning, playing my musical instruments without pain, and using my hands and arms without any restrictions.

I did also take a look at the things in my life that could have caused repressed emotions. Things that had emotionally effected me, but I just wasn't dealing with. I tried to force myself to face these things by just thinking about them and trying to "feel" the emotions that they caused. This was a gradual process over the course of the next months, and is an ongoing thing I continue to do.

Now the reason this worked for me was because I immediately completely believed the ideas it presented. In my case things were lining up for me to come to this realization, I just needed it explained to me the right way (in a scientific, concrete sort of way that I can make sense of and believe). So there is this "leap of faith" you have to take with this approach, which makes it difficult for a lot of people. For me it was easy to take, because it made sense of everything I had experienced (even some things before the wrist pain), whereas before I was confused as to why such a thing could happen and only had useless diagnoses such as "fibromyalgia" or "thoracic outlet syndrome" from my doctors. For me, there had been lots of hints as to what was really going on, but no clear explanation until I came across this.

What I'd suggest (assuming you've already seen a neurologist and eliminated diseases like MS as possibilities) is read this book, and if it doesn't immediately make sense to you, just keep it in mind and start observing the patterns of how your pain occurs. Give it another read after a while and see if it makes sense.

When I had my serious RSI episode, about 7 years ago, I observed that simply sitting at my desk or looking at my computer from across the room would induce pain in my mousing hand.

There was a majority physical component -- actually using the mouse was much, much more painful -- but there was also a psychological component. I suspect that this was anticipatory tension or somesuch, similar to a flinch response.

html version: http://google.com/search?q=cache:www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/ha...

I'll check that out.

I find that a Model M allows much softer typing than other keyboards, and much more predictable. If you're pounding the keys you're doing it wrong.

(This is precisely the point of having a resistance curve that is very easy through the part of the keypress where the actual contact is made, and then increases smoothly so that pushing the key all the way down is neither necessary nor desirable. It lets you not jam the keys down, and even gives you aural and tactile feedback to let you know when you’ve pressed the key far enough.)

(Edit: here's some images for the happy hacking keyboard; I'm sure I've seen this in English, but I'm not sure where. http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/leaflet/keyspec.html )

This is one thing I like about the design of the DataHand - there is no electrical contact to close. The keys have a magnet holding them onto the base, and when you press them you break the magnetic grip and push the key through an optical sensor.

There's no need to slam the keys until you hit a stop just to make sure they make contact. There's also not much chance you can push the key 'a bit' and have it not register, i.e. if you press it hard enough to move the key then they key moves past the sensor, otherwise it doesn't move at all.

Yes, yes. I've owned several Model M's myself (probably still have one around here somewhere). They are a very solid keyboard.

They are also loud enough to wake the dead!

Seriously, has anyone else here tried to type on one of those while talking to someone on the phone (like, when doing tech support)? Anyone else here used one of these to work on a school assignment, or a work project in the wee hours of the night--in a house where others are trying to sleep nearby? That's a recipe for disaster.

I do like the weight of the Model M (it stays put), and I like the feet that prop up the back of the keyboard to put it at a nice angle. While those features are nice, I still prefer a keyboard that doesn't scream out my every keystroke as if I were typing with a nailgun instead of a keyboard. I prefer my slightly-less ancient keyboard (only about 12 years old). I use an IBM model KB-8923 (which I believe was manufactured in 1997). It has a very similar layout to the Model M, except it does have those 3 nasty "Windows" keys (which I ignore). It is also heavy enough to stay put while I type, and at the same time is much quieter (without being "mushy", like a lot of keyboards are -- providing no pushback to the fingers at all). Like the Model M and many (most?) keyboards, it also has the feet that prop up the back corners. Fortunately for me, I bought this keyboard at a liquidation store (there were probably 20 or 30 of them in a stack for $1 to $2 each (in 2001). I think I bought 4 or 5 of them which I have used with different computers since then, perhaps giving some away with machines I gave to others. I wish I had bought the entire stack for that price. I have been that happy with them. I think one of the ones I bought started being unreliable, but only after much abuse (cracker/cookie/sandwich/whatever crumbs and probably one too many coffee/soda/water spills probably did it in). The rest are still in service.

The major thing missing from this article is any mention of Unicomp, which makes contemporary versions of the Model M called the "Customizer" and "Space Saver." I wrote a review of the Customzier here : http://jseliger.com/2008/05/07/product-review-unicomp-custom... , which also explains how to use it with Macs.

Thanks for the pointer. They sell a keyboard I've wanted for ages, a buckling spring keyboard with a thinkpad "nipple" mouse - http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html

Nice. It's always wonderful to find the exact thing one wants. I thought I'd found the right keyboard with the Matias Tactile Pro Version 1, but the "ghost key" problem scuppered that idea, and Version 2 was so bad it inspired this pan: http://jseliger.com/2007/10/18/product-review-matias-tactile... , ultimately leading me to the Customizer.

That indeed looks awesome. I used an IBM SpaceSaver (not the space saver mentioned above) with a pointy stick for a while, but the keys just didn't feel right.

I love my Model M keyboard(s). The sticker on them says Copyright 1984! Unfortunately, I've had to discontinue use of them at my workplace because the keyboard only has a PS/2 connector, and when using a PS/2-USB connector, it had too many issues like stuck/repeated key input or whatnot. One day I'll invest in a Unicomp one, to get the USB connector.

See here: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/paren... for an $18 adaptor that will work.

I have a 'USB to PS2' dongle thingy with a USB mouse (into a PS2 adapter!) and keyboard. The trick is not to buy a keyboard PS2 adapter... buy one that does BOTH keyboard and mouse. These work better than the single sockets for some reason.

Most of the single-socket adaptors that come packaged with a keyboard or mouse just make the physical connector fit. The chipset in those keyboards is designed to talk over whichever protocol it finds on the wire.

As a pre-USB-era keyboard won't have these kind of electronics inside, the adapter that comes with most modern keyboards won't work. The double adapters that you can buy separately, on the other hand, actually have electronics inside to translate the PS2 signals from the keyboard and mouse into USB.

I've recently bought an Unicomp Customizer, At first I was slightly disappointed because, despite the sturdiness, it looks slightly cheaper than a Model-M in term of plastic quality. However, after using it for a while, I came to understand the reason for this cult. Now when I happen to use other keyboards, they all seem so horrible.

Also, my rate of typing mistakes has drastically dropped.

By the way, I also got a Model-M, for comparison. The feeling is slightly different, but they are both good.

I bought an old model M a while back, and I didn't really like it. Too much travel in the keys for me to really get going fast. As heretic as it sounds, my favorite keyboard right now is my Apple one that's about a quarter inch thick. It doesn't make me feel like I'm typing on a typewriter and cleans with a quick swipe from a damp cloth. Plus, it's tiny and wireless.

Have to agree. I really like the new Apple keyboards. They feel minimalist but with enough key travel that I know when the button has been fully pressed.

Indeed, if you ask me, Apple has dethroned IBM for the go-to keyboard... especially for programming, there's nothing that's not perfect about it.

How about the lack of the insert key?

or page up and down

It has page up and page down. This (http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/07/imac-slim-...) is the keyboard I'm referring to. Still, I don't ever use those, vim supplies plenty of navigation methods that can be used from the home-row.

Vim implements it's own 'insert' style functionality. I have no use for it. Never really did even before vim.

Another agreement here. The new Apple keyboard is the first one that made me give up my Apple Extended Keyboard II (the Mac equivalent of the Model M), itself a classic.

After using the same IBM keyboard for 12 years, I'm also now using one of those thin Apple keyboards.

The Apple keyboard is very fast. Less distance to push keys down means more keystrokes in less time. On the other hand, I find it harder to hit the keys dead center.

I probably wouldn't go back, but there's room for improvement.

Have you used one the keyboards on Apple recent notebooks? If so, how does it compare to the thin Apple keyboard?

I really wanted to like the new Apple desktop keyboards (specifically the one without the numpad because I actually like the minimalist layout, and want to reduce the distance to the mouse), but it just didn't feel good to me (not enough key travel). The new notebook keyboards on the other hand feel good; not as good as pre-unibody, but pretty close (I use both a unibody and an early-2008 MBP).

I haven't used one of these thin keyboards for a significant length of time (just tried it in the store for about a half hour), though, so I'm wondering if it's something that takes a little time to appreciate.

I use a Model M on the desktop, but I actually heard of someone who liked the Model M switching to the thin Apple keyboard because they liked it even better.

A few years ago I earned the wrath of my coworkers when I cleaned up and started using an old model M that was lying around. Apparently it was quite loud :)

These days I'm happy with my Kinesis Advantage (seen here http://files.getdropbox.com/u/31884/desktop.jpg ).

Nice keyboard. For $300, though? That seems like a bit much. Still, I might request a review unit from them and see how it goes.

It's definitely steep (I ended up paying $270 after coupon). I jumped on it when I started having wrist pains and waking up with numb hands (first signs of carpal). Since using the keyboard, the pain and numbness has gone away.

I will point out that it took a good 2-3 weeks to get used to the layout, though now it feels quite natural.

For more info, I highly recommend the stack overflow thread on keyboards:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/687/keyboard-for-programm...

$300 is _nothing_ if you type for a living and it can save you from chronic wrist pain. I've had my Kinesis for a year. I was suffering from a good amount of pain, especially in my pinkies. It evaporated in about two days once I started using my Kinesis. Now I only get pain if I switch back to my old keyboard (it comes back in a few hours) or if I type for 8 hours straight or with bad posture.

Highly recommended.

I now have 4 Kinesis Advantage (2 old ones with AT connectors and 2 new USB ones). I use them in Dvorak mode in combination with a footswitch for shift/control to avoid having to strain with combinations, and I love them. They are totally remappable, mac<->pc switchable, qwerty<->dworak switchable, etc. If you have very short pinkies (like me) the pinky areas are less comfortable, but I've remapped the symbols on the outer rows to ctrl-number so I don't have to stretch my pinkies.

The only thing I miss is the ability to save the layout to a file on the computer like I could on my Fingerworks gesture keyboard.

I got my Kinesis on Ebay for between $100-200 a about four years ago. It's a joy to type on and probably one of the best investments I've made. The second probably being the Steelcase Leap chair I got (http://www.steelcase.com/na/leap_products.aspx?f=11852). I try to buy nice products that I spend a great deal of my time using.

I wouldn't recommend the Kinesis Advantage if you are using a non-english layout (dvorak is fine). The Kinesis Freestyle might be better though.

No, this is not a great keyboard. Not even close. It's terribly unergonomic. When I worked at IBM, I had this keyboard, and it seriously hurt my hands. I pulled off the keys and purposefully crimped the springs so that they'd be weaker and it would have a lighter action.

IMHO, most modern non-ergonomic (straight) keyboards are bad for you because they force wrist deviation (bending). That would include Apple's, and this is the one area where I really dislike Apple's design principles.

It seems like there's a simple design spec for a very nice keyboard:

   - Buckling springs, for that clicky feeling
   - Split, or somehow ergonomically enhanced
   - Columns instead of staggered keys

Anything else? Any disagreements with the above?

It might be interesting to see if home-designed keyboards could be built using 3d printers and ordered parts. Anyone up for writing a how-to?

I won't deny that the M was a great keyboard. I also used one for a number of years. Very reliable. But the idea for the layout did not come from IBM. It came from DEC. The VT220 keyboard was on desks and in use by the thousands a year and a half before IBM shipped the M.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT220

I have an incredible d|i|g|i|t|a|l keyboard someone gave me in 1997, and it clunkers away incredibly nicely. Same layout as the M.

I cleaned and even repaired it, supergluing the rubber thingies back onto the membranes. I also had to solder some wires back on.

I'm running it off a PS2/USB adapter for my Linux laptop and I can easily reach 100 WPM on this.

I'm a contractor working on the new NYC 911 system and the supporting IT infrastructure. The current system, at the desktop level, is all old IBM AIX boxes and every single one has one of these keyboards. The monitors, mice, etc have all been replaced due to wear and tear, but these keyboards have put up with the abuse of 24/7 constant typing for the last 15-20 years. Pretty amazing. I wouldn't mind grabbing one or two once they cut over to the new system.

Why not just buy a new one from Unicomp with modern USB ports and etc etc?

My dad had a keyboard just like that. Looking at this makes me wish he never threw it away (I assume that's what he did with it).

I'm currently using an Apple keyboard, one of those thin ones, and I'm incredibly happy with it.

I hear that! I have one of the same new "thin" aluminium keyboards and I love it! I find it easier to use than anything else I have tried...

Fantastic! I love seeing things like this. It's a shame so many of the products we use these days are so under-built. Having to throw things away a year after I buy them seems like a sin to me...

Why? I don't use most things for 22 years, so I've found it rather convenient that laptops hard drives go after 5 years or so, since it's a good reason to buy a new one.

But how much longer will it be economically viable to build stuff with an artificially limited lifespan?

Indefinitely, I hope... organisms have a limited lifespan. Why does my stuff need to last eternity?

Because great design/construction has it's own value? I think Apple computers prove this pretty well.

Building/owning something that has been constructed with great attention to detail is an absolute pleasure. As a quick example: There are many custom knifemakers worldwide making a living off of knive that they hand-make for up to several thousand dollars per piece. Owning one of their pieces is amazing because you can be absolutely confident that you'll have to try very hard to break it.

Making something like this is a labor of love and is definitely it's own reward.

I personally don't find it convenient when my things break.

But imagine not having things break that way. All those laptops could be in use by someone less financially fortunate than yourself, or pressed into use as file-servers or whatever.

I just think it's a waste of resources to design for failure. So much of what we use on a daily basis is destined for landfill in short order...

Yes, absolutely the best keyboard ever. I'm still using mine to this day, and it works as well as it did in 1991 when my older brother bought it with his 286.

Nothing I've tried comes close (although I have tried those high end M-inspired keyboard they make today). There are some disadvantages, like not having the command key when I VNC into my Mac box, but I can live with that.

I've spilled juice on the keyboard twice, short circuiting the electronics, and crashing my PC. But after opening it up and drying it off, it was as good as new.

I have some RSI problems as well, and they're entirely caused by use of the mouse and other keyboards (especially recent Mac keyboard), but the symptoms go away quickly when I'm back on the model M.

As long as I can get my hands on a working model, I'll be using one!! (and screw the sleeping roommates :)

That looks like a very nice keyboard. I liked the description of the "bucking spring" design behind the perfectly clicking keys.

Most modern keyboards can't recreate that authentic, high-quality feel.

"Most modern keyboards can't recreate that authentic, high-quality feel."

I would rather say that they can, but not at the $5 – $20 price point that many if not most modern keyboards sell at. Other gourmet keyboards like the Filco Majestouch and Das Keyboard go for ~$130. By that metric, used Model Ms and contemporary Customizers/Spacesavers from Unicomp (at $69: see http://www.pckeyboard.com ) are a bargain.

Yeah, but most keyboards are in the $5 - $20 range. It's the expensive high-quality keyboards that are in the minority because most people don't see the value in buying such an high performance keyboard.

I'll have to check out those keyboards you mentioned.

I bought one of these model M keyboards out of pure nostalgia. It is superbly built and I love the sound of the keys. However, by today's standards it's an ergonomic disaster, as it forces you to rotate your wrists to an uncomfortable degree. And I quickly tired of how much pressure it takes to depress the keys. My new favorite keyboard in the world is the aluminum beauty that came with my iMac. Oh well.

No, those keyboards are pikers in both quality and unbelieveable silky-smooth touch compared to the Microswitch-built Hall-effect keyswitch-based custom keyboards used at Stanford and MIT, aka The Knight Keyboard.

http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/Knight.html

Even the later versions that Symbolics and Sun used were inferior in quality and feel to these old TK keyboards.

Sigh.

I don't understand what the problem with 'dome' keyboards is. I've used the same standard one for years, and it hasn't failed on me yet. I rarely mistype, and when I do, it isn't because didn't feel the keypress. Sure, I could probably break it over my knee, but it's light and if someone had to subject it to that kind of abuse it would mean they were doing something wrong.

The model M keyboard I'm using right now actually came from the trash, all that was wrong with it was some ribbon cable being loose (very easy to fix). The fact that this keyboard is actually older than me just shows how durable they are.

Also it is pretty loud, I'm used to it, but whenever I'm talking with friends over voice chat they begin to complain about it.

I recommend it whole-heartedly.

It's hilarious that today, decades after its release, the Model M (and keyboards like it) still seem to be the defacto standard for the entertainment industry to convey characters are typing. Only very recently I've noticed a shift towards a softer, more realistic, typing sound.

Am I the only person in the world that prefers large enter key to the small, shift-like, key?

Das Keyboard is a great (albeit a bit expensive) replica of Model-M, it's even available in a key-less design: http://www.daskeyboard.com/

I love, love, love my Das Keyboard. It has more of a click than the Model M's clang, and the tactile feedback is great.

"...it's even available in a key-less design"

Surely the model with blank keys is the one every Hacker News reader should be going for? I was quite disappointed when they started making one with inscriptions.

I love my Das Keyboard. I used to get some painful cramps during work (programming). I tried a couple keyboards that helps somewhat, namely Microsoft's old-school natural keyboards, and also the happy hacker keyboard, but I'd still get wrist cramping if I typed long enough. Haven't had any issues at all with Das Keyboard.

The only drawback is that now it feels strange to type on keyboards without mechanical switches.

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