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Comment by jawngee | Hacker News Reader

This enrages me. I feel horrible for the developer.

First, my day rate as a professional full-time iOS dev is higher than what he paid for the entire project. Granted, I've been writing software for almost 20 years now, the last six strictly Cocoa and iOS, and I live in NYC. But even then, all I can tell him is that he got what he paid for.

Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple acceptance, there is no way I would work for them. Specially for some dumb app like this.

But the part that really irks me is the last bit about "doing it yourself next time". Good luck with that. I would love to be around the moment you have the epiphany about how much you got for how little you spent and what an asshole you are about whining about it.

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> Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple acceptance, there is no way I would work for them

It sounds from the article that payment terms were agreed upon before commencement of the work. Why did developer accept that contract if he thought it was wrong or unfair? Walk away / ask to change that bit / extra payment, etc. But renegotiating payment schedule half way through the project, really? That's poor work ethics.

And, BTW, I don't think it's a dumb app - it is actually quite smart, main risk was apple finding technical issues like "you are using wrong api / it crashes on iphone 3g". Customer wanted protection against issues like that.

Rephrase it in a way "you build app, I pay you. If you help me get it approved I give you $200 more". What is wrong with that?

Everything in this article is from the writers perspective. The developer may have done all the things you said, informally, but the article writer didn't bother to mention them. Perhaps he should have gotten a lawyer, and gotten an iron clad contract, but that itself would have cost more then the total amount he was going to be paid.

The project budget was $800. How much do you think a lawyer would cost? I guess you could get one cheaper on Elance...

They both acted sleazily. But it's elance - the Bangladeshi sweatshop of the internet.

They both got exactly what they deserved. Next time, they should try upping their budget and expectations.

I find it hilarious that people think it's just gathering some pieces, applying glue and add pretty graphics.

"Hey we have an app we want you to build, it should be super simple and take you no time at all" says the guy who has written code exactly never, but is a pro with powerpoint.

Getting a functional app within 2 days, and him thinking he's going to be able to "learn to code" and have that kind of output is bonkers.

I've been coding half my life, and it will still take me weeks to put together small stuff that I obsess over every little detail on.

You are enraged because someone else is getting paid way less than you are for doing the same work? Shouldn't you be feeling lucky and grateful instead?

Man I had the exact same thoughts. I have taken jobs in the past from clients with perspectives that resembled the authors and .... I can tell you, I will not do it again.

I totally agree to "he got what he paid for".

Before you have an aneurism remember that a Chinese developer has less than 1/10th the living expense and other costs incurred that you do.

This argument always bothers me because what it costs to live really isn't important.

At the end of the day Chinese worker A put in 40 hours of work and American worker B put in 40 hours of work.

They both invested 40 hours of their life into the project and neither of them are ever going to get that time back. Both of them will die at roughly the same age.

Just because someone lives in an area of the world where it's cheaper to live doesn't mean he should accept lower wages.

In addition, to have the same quality of life in China or other "developing" countries is much more expensive than the simple comparisons.

The American has enough money to take the family on the annual pilgrimage to Disneyland or Dollywood. The American has a car with A/C and an automatic transmission, shops at grocery stores that source produce and goods globally, and can have four bathrooms with potable water in its house.

To do the same in India, China, etc., you're not making it happen on the $800 per project unless you have a farm of people living in their grandparents' house and riding a bicycle made of cast iron and bamboo to get rice and something to "flavor" it.

> Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple acceptance, there is no way I would work for them

But that was the requirement of the project, which the developer agreed to.

What enraged me is the behaviour of the developer.

But adding this as a requirement is perfectly reasonable? How about the fact that this is completely out of the developer's control (apps are sometimes rejected for no reason whatsoever)? Let's hold out on payment until someone at Apple says it's alright.

Next time I buy some bananas at the supermarket, I'm going to tell the cashier that if my clients don't like them, they won't get paid and that they have to come with me to convince my clients that the bananas are perfectly fine.

Then don't agree to the terms, simple. You're a big boy, you're responsible for your decisions.

> But adding this as a requirement is perfectly reasonable?

If you don't think it's reasonable, why agree to the project?

> Next time I buy some bananas at the supermarket, I'm going to tell the cashier that if my clients don't like them, they won't get paid

That's a red herring fallacy, it has nothing to do with the situation we're discussing. The cashier has no contract with you, and didn't agree to anything.

The language problem may have meant that the developer interpreted the milestone as pay upon App Store submission instead of App Store approval. The developer stated in the conversation that if the app was rejected because of his coding mistakes, that he would fix those bugs.

Paying upon approval is ridiculous. I can request a developer write me an app with a buy button that takes the user to my website instead of using Apple's In-App Purchasing. That app would never get approved even though the developer wrote exactly what I asked them to. So I shouldn't pay the developer because Apple denied the app? And no, you shouldn't expect the developer to vet your design before starting development and alerting you of such problems unless you are paying for it. For $800, you are definitely not paying for it.

> The language problem may have meant that the developer interpreted the milestone as pay upon App Store submission instead of App Store approval

Well that's developer's problem, isn't it?

> I can request a developer write me an app with a buy button that takes the user to my website instead of using Apple's In-App Purchasing. That app would never get approved even though the developer wrote exactly what I asked them to. So I shouldn't pay the developer because Apple denied the app?

Yes, that's how contracts work. Welcome to the real world.

How is it your problem that the developer agreed to an impossible task?

"Well that's developer's problem, isn't it?"

Obviously not as the developer got full payment. It's both the developer's and client's problem.

"Yes, that's how contracts work. Welcome to the real world. How is it your problem that the developer agreed to an impossible task?"

Did you miss the part where the client wasn't going to get the app/code unless he paid? As soon as the dev said he needed payment or else the submission was a no-go, it became the client's problem. The "contract", if you could even call it that - good luck to the client trying to seek legal recourse with it, was poorly thought out. "Welcome to the real world."

In the real world, a contract that's impossible to perform is not enforceable.

https://www.inkling.com/read/wolters-kluwer-mbe-bar-prep/mbe...

Who would set up a contract releasing a developer from all obligations, prior to app acceptance, on the handwavy notion that the dev would fix it for free outside of contract?

That's just... not how business works. Milestones are organised such that the client can get the things he values with a reasonable probability. Even setting the milestones up as he did is risky, since the dev could just have decided to take 3/4, ship crappy code, and disappear into the interwebs. I guess in this case the client was relying on the reputation system of e-lance and the relatively small amount of money involved, but still.... when I read that he'd agreed to the final payment on such a flimsy acceptance clause I was ready to read a really bad end to this.

Not sure why people are emphasising the money so much. For a dev in NYC $800 is very little. For a guy in China that's a much better deal. Kind of the whole point of using e-lance, no?

I always specify that payment is due on the submission of the app to apple.

So, all of my clients do.

It is the only way iOS development can possibly work.

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