An Atheist Defends Religion
medium.com
medium.com
Part II: This is the classic strawman section. I actually agree with the author that many of the examples given in most debates are evidence of the evil of men, but he fails to recognize that religion has historically provided cover for those actions. Slavery has historically enjoyed such cover. Misogony and homophobia have luxuriated and continue to luxuriate under such religious cover.
I'm quite familiar with the problem of evil and the author did absolutely nothing to negate this. If God knows that evil is happening every minute of the day, He either can do nothing to prevent it or doesn't care to. As Sam Harris points out, God is therefore either impotent or evil. Every day I hear from religious people who claim that God helped them in some manner. They regularly give Him praise for things that He does on their behalf. I find this to be narcissistic, callous, and completely immoral when I consider that at least a dozen children under the age of 5 will have died during the course of you reading my remarks here. They and their parents will beseech Heaven for food and water and this same God who answers frivolous prayers somehow finds these starving children unworthy. There is nothing humble about this line of thinking.
I fail to see how the fact that our holy texts (regardless of how they have been translated or cobbled together) have frequently been shown to be incorrect is a flawed argument. An omniscient being should be able to explain in unambiguous terms what it expects. No holy book fits that description. Whether it is stopping the planetary motion of either our sun or our planet for 24 hours to allow Joshua to finish his battle (Bible - Joshua 10:13) or Muhammad splitting the moon (Qur'an - 54:1-2), these are cosmological claims being made by our religions. I fail to see how my inability to read it in Arabic somehow makes this scientifically possible.
If there is a conflict between religion and science, I get the feeling that the author feels it's ok to reject the scientific account. The problem I have with this is that unlike religion, science is not subjective. It has been the most consistently reliable way for us to determine fact from fiction. When a religious person disputes evolution in favor of creationism or asserts the historicity of a prophet flying to Heaven on a winged horse, those are anti-scientific views. Plain and simple.
Part III: This section basically deals with the author's desire to treat other peoples' beliefs as sacred. As H. L. Mencken said, "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." What the author fails to understand is that beliefs directly influence our actions. If the creator of the universe commands us to kill people for imaginary crimes like witchcraft, should we respect that belief (FYI - witch burnings still happen in places like Kenya)? If someone wants a religious belief like creationism taught alongside evolution in our classrooms, is the appropriate response one of tolerance? Unlike Jesus, I don't think we should enact thought-crime legislation, but if religious people cannot keep their unsubstantiated beliefs in check, we must oblige them to.
>The value offered by religion has absolutely no bearing on the truthfulness of the religion I don't disagree, but I argue that the value it offers is more important than the absolute truth of every ideology. Faith, by definition, transcends evidence. If that's not OK with you that's fine, but I also doubt that every word you've ever uttered was the complete and total truth. Also if you can causally link those statistics, I'd love to read it. But from where I'm sitting, I see only correlation.
The fact that religion has been used to cover atrocities does not mean either that they were caused by religion nor that they would not have happened without religion. As evidence I point to atrocities divorced of religion.
I am not fit to debate the problem of evil, but my point again is that this isn't a silver bullet for atheism. There are faiths or interpretations of faith that circumvent the issue entirely, so I don't view it as an overly effective argument.
I can't debate the aspects of the qur'an because I, you know, respect others' beliefs, but for the Biblical aspect I'll quote something that another commenter on hn brought up:
>Joseph Campbell: "These bits of information from ancient times [myths], which have to do with the themes that have supported man's life, built civilizations, informed religions over the millennia, have to do with deep inner problems, inner mysteries, inner thresholds of passage. And if you don't know what the guide signs are along the way you have to work it out yourself. " >See http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/perspectives1.html Very few people read the Bible literally. To pretend that they do is the essence of strawmanning.
>I get the feeling that the author feels it's ok to reject the scientific account N-no? Why would I think that. I don't defend people who deny scientific fact. But again, it's fallacious to think that that represents the whole, or even the majority, of religious folk.
>Unlike Jesus, I don't think we should enact thought-crime legislation Tipping your hand a little bit there. I don't ever remember Jesus saying "Let's not let others have freedom of thought."
Again, I DO NOT advocate ignoring science for the sake of religion. I never said that, and your and others' persistent insinuation that I am saying this is exactly the sort of behaviour that motivated me to write that in the first place.
I do take issue with your statement that "Faith, by definition, transcends evidence." A quick glance at Dictionary.com gives me a different definition that states faith is "belief that is not based on proof". If faith, by your definition, somehow transcends evidence, why should I respect that? In what other area of our discourse is it not only permissible but actually desirable to believe something strongly either in the absence of or in direct refutation of evidence?
I agreed with you on the evil of men, but the point I was trying to make is that religion does not seem to be a barrier to atrocities. A glance through the pages of history is all that's needed to demonstrate this. Even the pope in 2000 gave a mea culpa on atrocities committed by the Church in the course of two millenia.
I found the passage from Campbell to be entertaining. Frankly, it's white noise. What I find interesting about this and the suggestion that we shouldn't read these texts literally is that you have somehow stumbled upon the "correct" interpretation. Of course the universe wasn't created in six days. Of course the sun didn't stand still in the sky for 24 hours. Of course God didn't drown the entire world in a massive flood. Of course Jonah didn't actually stay in the belly of a large fish. Are you saying that people throughout history have never taken these stories literally or treated them as historical facts? The truth is that as our knowledge of the world has advanced, we now treat these stories as parables and metaphors. Allow me to quote my earlier statement: "An omniscient being should be able to explain in unambiguous terms what it expects. No holy book fits that description."
When we read in the Hadith (which has equal canonical authority to the Qur'an) that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is death, are we to believe that this is simply a metaphor? Are we taking it too literal? I contend that it's either the will of God or it isn't. Perhaps Christianity is easier to discuss for you. In the Christian faith, I can assure you that men like St Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine had read Jesus' teachings in the New Testament along with God's Old Testament commands to suffer not a witch to live, and they found it completely appropriate to kill women for this imaginary crime. If you're saying that God never meant Exodus 22:18 to be taken literally, congratulations - because you've been able to correctly interpret this ancient text in a way that some of the most venerated religious leaders could not. Kudos to you.
I don't understand your "tipping your hand" comment, but I can address the gist of your argument. Just because you don't ever remember Jesus enacting thought-crime legislation doesn't negate my argument. Read the Sermon on the Mount. When Jesus says that not just the physical act of adultery is against the law, but that the thoughts leading up to it are just as immoral and against the law, that is the very essence of thought-crime legislation. No?
Having read your opinions and responded to them, I am inclined to agree with an earlier poster who doubted your atheistic standing. "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
I love discussing these sorts of issues because I loving finding a point on which we can agree, even if we just agree that it's a difference of opinion. But I'm not convinced that it'd be worth either of our times to continue if that goal is impossible.
If you believe in the Christian "creation" story you don't believe that the world is 4.5 billion (give or take a few hundred) years old. This would be a fairly significant problem for someone calling himself or herself a scientist yet while being a religious person.
The bigger thing for me is that I see no facts surrounding it. So, I see people that I know taking this on faith and that, to me, is a fundamental flaw in their thinking.
I think most people out there understand why religion exists and I agree with many of your points here but I still believe that it is fundamentally wrong.
Humans used to believe lightning and fire was caused by a god until we understood what actually caused it. Give it a few thousands years and I think we'll be much further along.
This is not to say that I go out of my way to attack it but I surely will fight if someone presses it on me.
Also, there's an unspecified amount of time between Genesis 1:1, when "God created the heavens and the earth" and 1:2, which says "But the earth became waste and emptiness."
These two clues tell me the text is not meant to offer any information about dates and times.
But I'm supposed to forget about all of that because of "community". It's somehow a GOOD thing that ignorant birds of a feather flock together? It's somehow a GOOD thing that the scientifically illiterate majority control the public policy of the largest superpower in the world?
But I'm supposed to forget all of that because it "makes them happy"? That their ignorance is bliss? That simpleminded people don't suffer existential angst? That having a book that makes up answers to all of life's questions instead of providing anything remotely approaching anything empirical is somehow "comforting"?
But I'm supposed to forget all of that because religion has been around since all of recorded human history.. and that that is somehow significant?
Go ahead max, dismiss the critics by forgetting that the Crusades was entirely motivated by religion, dismiss the philosophical problem of evil because you think you've found a satisfactory answer to it, dismiss the fact that the Bible is riddled with factual and historical inaccuracies, dismiss religion's blatant disregard for Science Fact because "people are inconsistent about their beliefs all the time" (because that's such a good reason). ...and by all means, continue making spectacularly ignorant blog posts and don't both enabling comments because, heaven forbid, someone might call you out on your nonsense and set you straight.
Stay in school, Max, and keep thinking through these things. You've got a ways to go.
1) You say "religion is a dangerous evil whose existence threatens the very future of humanity." This seems, at best, blowing something way out of proportion. In fact, you make a whole shitload of biased, uncited claims in your first paragraph. I struggled with getting the right balance between outside sources and personal stream of my own thoughts, but I think if you're going to categorise faith as an existential threat to humanity you're going to need to prove it a little bit more than just, you know, fearmongering.
2) If you don't see the power of a community, I cannot help you. To me, the happiest people have always been in a supportive group, generally focused around central beliefs. Whether it's groups of coders hanging out after work or weeaboos watching new animes together, a community seems a core component of happiness, and I view more people having a deep, personal happiness as more important than crushing faith. Then again, I don't see religion as a threat to the human race, so if you can prove (or argue compellingly) for your first point, I may have to reconsider this one.
3) Everybody always says that The Crusades were entirely motivated by religion. That is foolish; I would argue that it was another war fought for the same reason that every war has ever been fought: for power. But in this war, one of the parties was behind a flag of religious righteousness. I will again point to the fact that a bunch of people have killed, many, many more people in cases entirely devoid of religious ideologies. How many people died during the crusades? Was it less than 40 million? I did a little bit of googling, and it seems to be way less than 40 million, so it still pales in comparison to Mao or Genghis Kahn.
4) I didn't disable comments. I don't know if Medium has comments, but this is the correct forum for airing comments; that's why I posted it to hn in the first place. I've also written about the folly of allowing comments, but given your reception to this piece, I'm hesitant to link something else that might raise your blood pressure even further.
Regards, -max golden
You must not live in the US, must not be aware of how religion influences scientific research, and must not pay much attention to the news.
> In fact, you make a whole shitload of biased, uncited claims in your first paragraph. ...fearmongering.
This is so typical of HN. Disagree? No problem. Dismiss everything said with a "citation needed". Your entire blog post was an uncited claim. But I'm not going to even bother making that a point of contention. This game is juvenile, especially on matters of common knowledge. Only a jackass walks around saying "citation needed" to every claim someone makes. Re: fearmongering, is this some kind of joke? Are you really questioning that the religious majority controls politically the United States? Are you really questioning that religion shapes public policy in ways detrimental to scientific advancement and societal progress? Do you really think the ideas behind the second coming of Christ encourage self reliance as opposed to say extreme apathy, since their Lord and Savior will soon descend from heaven to judge, condemn, and then magically fix all the problems of the world for us, creating an eternal paradise for all believers? Are you really unaware of the common objection to climate change among Christians in America that climate change is bogus because "God wouldn't let that happen"? Do you really contest my assertion that religion lacks empirical evidence? Have you yourself seen signs, wonders, and miracles on the order of Biblical proportions? Do you often see water turned to wine, great waters parted on command, the sick healed and the dead raised? Because those are the claims of Christianity.
> If you don't see the power of a community, I cannot help you
I never said community wasn't a great thing, I only said, in so many words, that a community based on ignorance and nonsense is not a net "good". Do you argue that the "community" created around Hitler's ideologies was a net "good"? That's absurd. Not everything that unites is good.
> I would argue that it was another war fought for the same reason that every war has ever been fought: for power
Right. Except, of course, that you're wrong.
> How many people died during the crusades? Was it less than 40 million? I did a little bit of googling, and it seems to be way less than 40 million, so it still pales in comparison to Mao or Genghis Kahn.
Do you really think it somehow makes what happened during the Crusades any better? Your point is completely irrelevant. If religion did not exist those tens of millions of people would not have been killed. That's the only thing that matters.
*in regards to the "What is our purpose" question.
This has always been why I've been guilty of treating religious folk like special needs children on occasion. I don't think that religion's answer for that question is any more satisfying than ignorance. It feels like a huge life shortcut that doesn't help with the problem. Any time the answer is "Because God", it just means that the buck stops there, and no more thought occurs. How are we ever going to answer any of these important questions if we never devote time to thinking about them?
In essence, though, you are correct: a person who allows their beliefs to stifle acquisition of further knowledge is not a person deserving of respect.
I get what divinedefault meant about thought crimes. I think (s)he refers to Jesus' bit about lust in the heart being equal to adultery, and calling someone a fool being equal to murder. I think Jesus was pointing out that there are crimes in everyone's thoughts. He was talking to ultra-religious law-keeping bigots who thought they were better than everybody.
Joseph Campbell: "These bits of information from ancient times [myths], which have to do with the themes that have supported man's life, built civilizations, informed religions over the millennia, have to do with deep inner problems, inner mysteries, inner thresholds of passage. And if you don't know what the guide signs are along the way you have to work it out yourself. "
See http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/perspectives1.html