College Is A Waste. Replace It With Y Combinator | Hacker News Reader

College Is A Waste. Replace It With Y Combinator

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19 pointscorlapa47 comments

Preaching 'College is a waste of time' and dropping out of college makes you a Facebook founder, isn't healthy! If you are studying Computer Science, you need to learn Artificial Intelligence or Architecture design, you cannot say it has no relevance to the industry. It does, and it helps to shape up a young mind to look at the BIG picture. YCombi is great, but how can you replace that for College education? Its narrow in scope.

Agreed. Industry experience is great for developing practical knowledge, but it's not as good for (and often encourages against) developing theoretical knowledge. Is graph theory something you'll learn on the job?

I'm a 4th year CS major. During the second year, I seriously reconsidered changing majors. I felt CS "wasn't enough programming", and therefore not relevant to my future.

However, I stuck to it. It's only recently that I've discovered that all that set theory, automata theory, and architecture theory has actually made me a much better programmer than I would have been otherwise.

On the other hand, a CS major alone will not make you a good programmer. You must also program in your spare time, continuously, constantly learning, whether it be work or personal projects.

> The truth is that college is one big party

I believe 100% this is THE most important part of college/university level education. The education part is minor because if you have a subject interest it will come fairly naturally (I do think if you have to force knowledge in there is no point trying).

Partying is socialising, building a circle of friends/associates and generally learning how humanity interacts. Indeed the education is partly just a way to validate the lifestyle to later employees (4 years dossing vs. 4 years "at college", right? :)).

Were I to have gone straight from school into the real world I would have failed and had no support network to catch me.

Now yes I do see what he means about letting people loose on real projects. BUT there just isnt enough incubator work to go around - and at the end of the day you do need some mundane background classes to get you started. The higher education model is broken, I agree, but scrapping it would be bad. Let people develop their social construct and let off steam - then make them useful :)

As somebody who attended college off and on, and in my 20s instead of right out of high school, I missed out on this. I think you're on to something there, ErrantX.

I've been a fan of some required national service for some of these same reasons. I think not only you, but society as a whole benefits when young people are put together and form support groups as part of starting off. It should be encouraged more.

You also get to meet people across a diverse range of subjects. I imagine working on hacker type projects would be great fun - but everyone would likely very samey :) I like that I can ring up a friend for help on some obscure historical reference in pub quizes :P

National Service; I'm totally down with that! Actually (slightly off topic) I've always been a fan of replacing young offenders institutes with something like enforced national service (the training stuff not the gun in hand stuff ;)). There was a great show here in the UK where they threw dossers into a "bad lads" national service camp and it had a real positive effect on them!

I think both examples (NService and college life) are about pushing you out of any comfort zones :)

Required National Service is a horrible idea, for a myriad of reasons -- #1 of which is that it's slavery. Notice how whenever anyone talks about national service, it's always aimed at the politically naive (children, and young adults). We don't see required national service for 35 year olds, or 60 year olds.

Now supporting groups for young people to tackle is interesting problems (where they develop character and lasting relationships) is commendable, as long as its voluntary and not looking for a handout.

Is there a middle ground? So for example I would be a fan of young people who left school and stay on the dole for several years (say 2 years) being made to do some form of service (maybe not military). It would certainly give them a boost IMO.

I don't understand why you want young people to stay on the dole for 2 years? Shouldn't they being doing something productive? I think that the constant age segregation throughout school and college is actually a major hindrance to most people. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve, there are already programs for people that want structure (college, peace corps, military, volunteer work, etc).. I'd personally prefer to have them do something that delivers value, than doing something that makes them feel good but is ultimately wasteful. I also think its wrong to take money from others to subsidize programs that aren't available to them; think of the minimum wage worker whose taxes help send others to college while they're stuck trying to scrape by.

Your post surprises me, because just a couple of days ago you told me you were a libertarian, and that suggests you would oppose all forms of slavery. Of course, you later added that you were a utilitarian, and you're certainly not the first utilitarian to favor some type of slavery. But I don't see how you can square this with the "libertarian" label.

"Partying is socialising, building a circle of friends/associates and generally learning how humanity interacts."

So is work, except you're more likely to remember it the next day.

nah - I like the people I work with but good friends? Besides they all have the same interests right? (or thereabouts) :) no variety.

You've fallen back a bit onto the "so drunk you black out" stereotype. Which isnt fair at all - you're right there is little value in that but it doesnt mean the other 99% of the time socialising isnt valuable :)

Posted partly in jest.

I remember something my sister once said. She wants her kids to go to college and play sports because it's the best way of learning teamwork. I begged to differ, suggesting they oughta get jobs instead.

I agree completely with your original post.

One of my most vivid early college memories was teaching the other 100 or so freshmen in my dorm how to use the washing machine. Geesh, leave them in the woods and they'd just die. Hopefully, they're better now.

Yeh I know - sorry I didnt intend to jump quite so vociferously to defence. :D

College is not a waste if you want a great education. Where else can you interact with and be taught from the world's best in nearly any course of study? In college you get a mind opening view of what any one subject has to offer, rather than a narrow view driven by a purpose for learning that material. That broad exposure translates to being a more effective thinker and problem solver.

And to counter a few more of his points: 1) The fundamentals don't change every four months. 2) Lectures can be dry, but it doesn't mean you don't learn from them. And you DO get to put it into practice when you have labs or personal projects (often inspired by the new material you learned).

When I read that "many students" would do better as entrepreneurs out of high school, I take that as some significant amount of high school graduates. The vast majority of entering freshman really need the time and environment a university offers to develop their skills and passions (ie. figure out what they want to do and what they're good at.).

I'd be afraid that the students who would do the best without college are the students we need most to pursue educations in engineering and sciences. It would be unfortunate if they spent their resources starting a company which likely wouldn't succeed instead of getting an education that would bear better fruit down the road.

Maybe rephrase "College Is a Waste for __fill_in_the_blank__ Majors"

Is college a waste for Doctors & Lawyers? Do you want a doctor to learn his trade on-the-job?

College is a big waste for a lot of majors, but certainly not in general...

I know they're not valued much here at HN, but don't forget the Liberal Arts types. Art History and such may not be my cup of tea, but I'm glad someone out there is teaching and studying it.

College may not do much for the entrepreneur types, but I didn't know I was one until after college, and it took the skills I acquired there to get myself off the ground.

    College !== Law School
    College !== Medical School

Doctors learn medicine in medical school. College is just wasting time jumping through hoops.

As for law, a friend who recently graduated from law school said, "We would spend all semester paying to hear our professors who just liked to hear themselves talk. Then we would spend our summers interning and get paid to learn useful skills."

Doctors learn the prerequisites to the stuff they learn in Medical school: chemistry, biology, all that other science.

Lawyers learn the law in law school. We do not actually need to go to college for anything, since the law does not rely on any prerequisite knowledge, except maybe (American) political history and intro-level macroeconomics.

Doctors do learn on the job. Med School, Residency, etc. When they are done with that they are "practicing". They also spend time keeping up with the latest research and best practices(we hope).

Do you want a doctor to learn his trade on-the-job?

That's what rotations/residency/intership are. On-the-job training.

Not to mention electrical, mechanical or chemical engineers, scientists, editors, diplomats, or anyone else who requires a large and deep pool of specialized knowledge.

I would not advocate this myself. The advantages of college are not measured only in earnings. And even if they were, YC would only be suitable for a small percentage of students, because only a small percentage have the temperament to start a startup.

"It creates corporate drones"

There are plenty of ways of going to college without assuming a lifetime of debt. But no one is going to bring you a bunch of money. It's up to you to find it. See, you learned something from college before you even matriculated.

"What it teaches is out of date by the time students graduate"

In Current Events class, maybe. In classics, sciences, history, etc., etc., etc., hardly.

"It doesn’t teach the way people learn"

Maybe. Maybe not. What is does do is present enough options so that someone who wants to learn will find a way.

"Four years of information is too much to retain"

If you're going to college to learn "four years of information", maybe you shouldn't go. OTOH, if you're going to discover yourself, expand your horizons, learn how to learn, and build a foundation for a better life, who cares how much "information" you remember?

"Its promise is a hoax"

Anyone lazy enough to go to college and expect the world on a silver platter deserves whatever they get.

"The truth is that college is one big party"

Any your complaint is...?

"There are plenty of ways of going to college without assuming a lifetime of debt. But no one is going to bring you a bunch of money. It's up to you to find it."

I am, currently, going to college. I have quite a bit of debt ($8K) and expect to get about double that by the time I'm finished. If you can show me a way to pay for college without debt, and I actually get the money, I will pay you $25 for every $100 I receive. So, if you can show me a way to get $200,000 for college (which I would have to come up with, somehow, if I weren't fortunate enough to get some scholarship money), you would get $50,000. If you can show me a way to get $20,000 to pay off my current and future debt, you'll get $5,000.

I can predict in advance, with fairly high probability (although I would obviously be delighted to be proven wrong), that you won't be able to come up with any way for me to get that sort of money, even given that you probably have more experience than I do, and even given an immediate large financial incentive. The reason why is obvious: $200,000, or even $20,000, is a crapton of money, especially when you're young, have no to little experience and are working hard as a full-time student. Most adults- people who have had full-time jobs for ten or twenty or thirty years- pay for items that cost that much on credit, because they can't afford it otherwise, even though they get socked with finance charges when they borrow.

We are not the mixergy RSS feed. Everything created there doesn't have to show up here [make up your own comments about the community expanding and contentless articles appearing with high upvote counts here].

Also, you're not helping your point: "I bet you that a collage graduate learns more in her first year on the job than she does in all four years in college."

Interestingly though, a "collage graduate" is a good thing. A good university experience will give you exposure to a bunch of a different areas. Hopefully you'll become well-rounded. Then you can start connecting multiple disciplines together in unique ways not many people think to cross-pollinate.

I think the grandstanding fist pump should disqualify mixergy from Hacker News altogether.

I'm a student who is halfway done with a degree in Entrepreneurship. I often ask myself what the hell I'm doing, and the answer is simple--society says I have to. Now, I realize its all one big hoax, but I've stuck with it because of the relationships I have built thus far. With that having been said, I would happily give my $30,000/year in student loans to an incubator program that could actually get me started. Maybe Y Combinator needs to take a more "University" approach and allow students to pay for the education they provide.

Degree in Entrepreneurship? I've not heard of this, and (off the bat) it seems like it might be one huge contradiction, or a way for a school to bundle a bunch of pre-existing courses together into something "new and innovative" that they can advertise.

Can you discuss your program a bit?

they have one at my school. it's like a hodge podge of different things, with some basic stuff thrown in like "Writing a business plan". so much of the stuff is out of date and useless, it's not even funny.

Like jasonlbaptiste explained, it really is a hodge-podge of offerings with a heavy emphasis on management and administration. At Bradley University (my school), they have not completely just "bundled a bunch of pre-existing courses together." Most of my classes have been tailored to fit the needs of start-ups (ie. instead of Cost Accounting, I took Advanced Entrepreneurial Accounting).

All in all, I don't feel that the program is a total bust. Thanks to an endowment from an alumni, I have a free subscription to magazines such as Inc. and Small Business, an all-inclusive trip to an Entrepreneurship conference once a year, and access to a center for entrepreneurship that provides counseling and training from experienced professionals. If anything, my degree provides me resources similar to what is offered at YC (without the prestige, quality, and seed funding).

If you're ambitious, motivated, and skilled technically, college might be a waste?

I've yet to meet anyone who wholly discounts their college experience, even if they're advocates of alternative, experiential learning (like YC.)

You don't go to college for academic credentials. You go to college to meet people and learn about yourself.

Personally I'm getting tired of all this college bashing. Nowhere else can the most people build up the biggest contacts' network, greatest knowledge and the best personal development for the shortest amount of time. Sure thing, there's always the exceptions proving the rule. This is probably the most evident within comsci.

As a reply to the article, I'd say the best way to transform "waste" into "worth" is simply to get rid of the huge tuitions with maintained quality. Though, I realize this is probably next to impossible for the US. However, it works fine in other countries.

College is a weird beast. I stopped out to work on Publictivity/move to the Valley and now I'm back in school finishing at night. It still has no value to me in the real world. I'm a CIS major, and even though the "formal education" is nice, it just complicates things. The way students are taught to do database design + code makes me fully understand why most software sucks.

I don't think we could ever just get rid of college, but I think we need alternatives that aren't looked upon as some "rogue option". People like doctors and lawyers need formal schooling. There will always be corporate drones, but hopefully less will emerge over time. I am glad to see more and more are pursuing things outside of what the normal college path might present.

There's also the social issue, which is an important part of college. It forces you to meet other people. That's great for spurring ideas or even starting a company. My first "company" was with a bunch of people I met while in college. Everyone is now off doing their own startup after learning some of the ropes together. So, whatever the alternatives are to college, make sure you find a way to keep yourself social. It could be meetups, super happy dev houses, coworking,etc. Just don't isolate yourself.

//End Rambling

A lot of people are missing the point of the anti-college position.

Imagine a car which gets 8 MPG and breaks down every day. Now, you know this car sucks, so you criticize it constantly. But then the car manufacturer hits back: "Cars are necessary. Cars help you get places faster. Cars are comfortable and private."

Of course, you know all this. You're not opposed to the idea of using a vehicle for fast transportation; you're just opposed to what passes for a car today.

And so it is with college. I oppose the standard model for universities which prevails in today's world (largely due to state support): four years, classes, lectures, A-F grades, rigid structure, and so on.

I do NOT oppose learning, education, networking, socializing, relaxing, and having fun. In fact, I think all of those things can be done better with a radically different school system. So please don't keep telling me college provides all this. Some of us do think today's colleges do such a bad job that you're better off not going even if you miss out on some things. But that doesn't mean we actually want everyone to miss out on these experiences as an ideal.

These posts come up every few months, more often than not written by people that did not go to college.

"Students today leave school with so much debt" I finished school debt-free. I saved up for school and applied for as many scholarships as I could. Many employers will even give you signing bonuses to help pay off student loans.

"What it teaches is out of date by the time students graduate" College is not a tech school. Going to college is more about learning how to learn and meeting people. If you really want to go places in your field of study you spend lots of time out of class exploring new ideas, and if this is the case you will likely be ahead of the curve through most of your life.

"People learn by doing, not by sitting in a class and being lectured to." Yeah. Most science and engineering classes are heavily lab and project based.

"Four years of information is too much to retain" Perhaps for some. However those same people can easily review and be back up to speed.

"The truth is that college is one big party" College is what you make of it.

>What it teaches is out of date by the time students graduate

Subjects like math and algorithms (some of the most useful classes I took) do not go out of date by the time you graduate. I may have to learn a new algorithm later in life, but the building blocks that I got in the class are often necessary.

I agree completely - every single one of his points is something I've experienced personally, causing no end of frustration. I felt like I needed a degree because the rest of the world puts so much emphasis on it, but I personally gained very little from it. I know this topic has been discussed a million and one times on here - but I wish this was a much more public issue than it already is.

This article reminds me that I've never even been asked if I graduated high school. Not having a college education has never been a problem for me either.

College experience is good and valuable but the mode of instruction could be improved for a lot of the classes by injecting a dose of practical, hands-on experience like the "y-combinator's incubator model", may be like 1 semester of class and the 1 semester of project work.

Well, I'm still in school kinda and I'm still in the planning stages of my startup, but I feel that I learned a lot of stuff in college that I really wouldn't have touched otherwise. I dunno how practical it is in the "real world," but I thought my time/ money was worth it.

Compilers and languages -- Right now I've got ideas on how to create a new and better programming language (hopefully that will be the 100-year language =P) which will have stuff from lisp, prolog, C++, Java, and first order logic. honestly, there would be no way that I would try to learn lisp by myself, much less understand the elegance of lambda calculus. I wouldn't know where to start thinking about other complex things like knowledge representation and complexity related to it.

Linux / vim / eclipse / makefile -- I picked up how to use a lot of tools in college, when some other friends also used it. It would have really bad if I had to learn all of those without being able to call someone up and ask for help.

networking -- I've done some stuff outside of school for a year that had nothing to do with CS. I really haven't met so many "simple" people before... not that there's anything wrong with that, but I really do not think of them to do interesting projects with. Not all the people I knew from college was a CS major, but I can see myself working with a lot of them for various projects.

Machine learning -- This was one of those things that I was interested in, but I can't see myself learning about it all by myself. I took a class about it for audit, then took it again a few years later. It really makes a difference to be pushed to do the work. And even though I forgot about a lot of the details, I don't think it would be too hard to re-learn about random forest, bayesian networks, reinforcement learning, etc.

It seems to me that there are a lot of software companies out there that do some stuff that are pretty heavy on the theory side. Google's pagerank, spam filters, antivirus software, etc. I'll bet those kinda jobs are better than a "4-year-experience-with-java" job.

I'm also not too sure about the "replacing college with an incubator" thing... college is something you gotta do, doing a startup is supposed to be a risky thing. I've done a year long senior project that I just totally blew off because it was a "class project". People have done much more stuff in three months than what I did that year. If people see the startup incubator as something that's required, i don't think it would work out as well. But I think it would have been helpful if there were more incubators that were closely tied with the school, so that it wouldn't seem like such a far-fetched idea to do a startup.

btw, those humanity classes really are a total waste of time.

Something you might learn in college: 'replace' has a 'p' in it.

Why is this getting that much of upvotes?

That was clearly a typo. Besides, Mommaboy seems to be a new account created just to troll.

I hate to chime in on an obvious troll, but I have to admit I laughed when I read the title.

The thing about college is that, for some of us, it teaches us to learn. Much like the IB program I attended in highschool, the Computer Science program in college forced me to learn how to learn.

It seems silly thinking about it, but looking back I remember a great deal of my peers in the lower level, general knowledge courses who complained about writing two page papers on something they'd just discussed in class. This should not be difficult. A 5-6 page paper was a single night ordeal for me, and a 2 pager just seemed like a silly thing to worry about. For me, it was a walk in the park because I had already learned to write from my time in IB, and before that in the honors middle-school program.

A trend? Yep.

So after college when I took a salaried job writing ColdFusion, a language I had barely even heard of, I picked it up quickly. Of course, that was thanks to having to learn a ton of languages, constructs, and their memory layouts in college. I had learned how to learn, just like highschool taught me to question things and middle school taught me to write (and enjoy writing).

That said, there is definitely nothing that will ever replace real-world experience. However, that coupled with a college education might just save you from picking up a bunch of bad habits and give you that much more of an edge in both life, and your career.

Disclaimer: All mispellings and terribly grammar are to be politely discarded lest the trolls be fed. ;)

YCombinator is a waste; replace it with Vegas.

Don't you guys ever get tired of jerking off about YC?

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