Show HN: Bitbillpay - Pay any PostBillPay biller in Australia with Bitcoin | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Bitbillpay - Pay any PostBillPay biller in Australia with Bitcoin

bitbillpay.com.au

80 pointszhoutong27 comments

Since the service you offer is so simple, why not have the home page BE the bill pay form, with some peripheral explanation boxes? I.e. you navigate to the site, and the first thing you see is the code and reference amount fields etc.

Further to my response to a comment stating that this does not fall foul of AUSTRAC's requirements, I think it does break the law with respect to the Corporations Act's requirements for an Australian Financial Services License (AFSL)...

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/ASIC.NSF/byHeadline/Licensing

"An Australian financial services (AFS) licence authorises licensees to:

1 provide financial product advice to clients;

2 deal in a financial product;

3 make a market for a financial product;

4 operate a registered scheme;

5 PROVIDE A CUSTODIAL OR DEPOSITORY SERVICE;

6 provide traditional trustee company services."

I think you are performing #5 above, therefore are breaking the law by operating without an AFSL (if you do have an AFSL, the license number should be displayed on your website).

Plus consider the Electronic Funds Transfer Code of Conduct...

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Electronic+F...

Not trying to rain on your parade, just making sure you are aware of the relevant laws you (may) be breaking!

I can't see how Bitbillpay is remotely a custodial or depository service. No dollar ever changes hands (I pay your bills with my credit card, and you pay me in Bitcoin). Australia Post also explicitly allows "third party bill payments" in their terms of service.

and then the only person who can do a charge-back if required is you...

What if there is a delay between receiving the bitcoin to doing the payment, for example if the payment gateway is down? Would that imply custodial or depository service?

Definition of "custodial or depository service": http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca2001172/...

There's nothing remotely similar. The Bitcoin payment is not an arrangement nor a financial product. It's not held in trust either.

Thanks for the link. I wouldn't want to rely on my interpretation of reading that Act to keep myself out of trouble! There are so many links that go to fairly unhelpful definitions such as 'when used in a provision outside Chapter 7, has the same meaning as it has in Chapter 7.' So it's not a settlement facility etc, it seems exepmt from these if it's not considered a financial product?

Out of interest, do you know what a similar service that accepted AUD instead would be classified under?

Superb. This is a really great initiative Ryan. Ive had the great misfortune of having to use postbillpay to pay off my numerous speeding fines and anything that can get me around using that broken website is a phenomenal achievement. All the more so when you do it in a concise modern approach by including bitcoins.

Ill be sharing this with a lot of my friends.

Thanks. Actually you can use this service to pay all kinds of bills. There are almost 700 billers in Australia that accept POSTbillpay. It's just that the BPAY® trade mark is a lot more reputable and familiar to Aussies.

Be careful Ryan Zhou is the same person with the sketchy past behind Bitcoinica. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoinica

Context: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81581.0

To fairly judge my background, you should really only look at Bitcoinica between Sep 2011 and Jan 2012, when I actually had a management role in the business. The subsequent mis-management was entirely out of my control. I owned exactly zero percent of the company before, during and after any of the three hacks. I sold all assets related to Bitcoinica in November 2011 (~4 months before the first "Linode hack").

I honestly want Bitcoin to be successful, and that's why I joined CoinJar and started the journey all over again.

For those outside Australia, you can pay most bills at the post office (Australia Post) or online via the post office's PostBillPay service. Basically, AusPost act as a middleman between the biller and the customer. But AusPost only accept Australian Dollar payments.

So from my reading of it, Ryan's project takes a bitcoin payment from the customer, converts it into AUD, then connects to PostBillPay and pays the bill, then send the customer the receipt from PostBillPay.

Bill payments 1.0: Customer -> Biller

Bill payments 2.0: Customer -> PostBillPay -> Biller

Bill payments 3.0: Customer -> BitBillPay -> PostBillPay -> Biller

It's a great idea .. but I imagine if it takes off, AusPost will implement pay-by-bitcoin in their own service.

Actually that's exactly the point of this project. I run a startup called CoinJar (the first VC-backed Bitcoin startup in Australia) and Bitbillpay consumes CoinJar Checkout API.

I will open source the project once it has gained some initial traction. But before that, I will probably write a few tutorial-like blog posts to demonstrate how to integrate the seamless and unbranded Bitcoin checkout solution into any online business.

But of course, Bitbillpay is actually easier and faster to use than POSTbillpay. For one thing, you don't have to enter your credit number, and you can automatically receive an email with the receipt. (Australia Post will ask you to "print out".)

What do you mean by "the first VC-backed startup in Australia"?

CoinJar is backed by AngelCube[0]. [0]: http://www.crunchbase.com/company/coinjar

He means first VC-backed bitcoin startup ;P

Whoops. Thanks for pointing out. Edited original post.

I think teaching a kitten to read your credit card and arrange it's kibble into a binary representation would be easier than using the POSTBillPay website.

So this project is a proof-of-concept for CoinJar's Checkout API? I think doing a consumer approachable project to demonstrate something that's invisible like a new checkout system is a great idea!

It is absolutely a proof-of-concept. At the same time it's just one of the many tools I wish Bitcoin can have. I don't expect it to be profitable (unless you count credit card points) but I will keep it running to allow 694 billers in Australia to accept Bitcoin indirectly.

Maybe someday they will see the value in CoinJar Checkout API and integrate directly. I'll even give them the source code I've written if they're too lazy to browse API docs. :-D

I imagine if it takes off, AusPost will implement pay-by-bitcoin in their own service

As someone with occasional interactions with AusPost's software group: That'll take a few decades - they'd be better off buying you.

Are you enrolled to AUSTRAC in accordance to Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Act of 2006?

AUSTRAC has explicitly mentioned that Bitcoin and other crypto currencies are currently out of scope of AML/CTF.

Bitbillpay doesn't accept fiat currencies. It's not a money transmitter. You can't use the service to get cash.

Interesting, I've been looking for a reference for the first point you made, would you happen to have one?

To answer my own question:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kpthd/aus_austracs... http://matholroyd.com/post/34232285907/the-irony-of-australi...

"Digital currencies potentially allow individuals and entities to conduct quick and complex international funds transfers outside the regulatory requirements of the traditional financial system. Digital currencies that are not backed, either directly or indirectly, by precious metal or bullion are not regulated by the AML/CTF Act."[0]

It's quite surprising that the law is written that way, but CoinJar is pretty proactive to positively shape the Bitcoin economy and establish legitimacy before regulation comes in. At CoinJar we have already merged the AML/CTF 100-point check into our ID verification for fraud prevention. Currently cash deposits are not regulated but bank branches have the right to require depositors to show ID.

[0] http://www.austrac.gov.au/files/typ_rprt12_full.pdf

It would probably argued that under the Corporations Act 2001 as administered by ASIC you are probably offering a financial service here, and are therefore required to hold an Australian Financial Services License.

Good luck!

IANAL but applying your implied criteria it seems that every online store should hold AFSL because they take money from consumers. A "financial product" has been clearly defined in CA.

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