A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue
latimes.com
latimes.com
The rate listed in article (18 cents/gallon) is not a big influence to prevent driving - it's ten times less than the gas excise tax I pay in EU, which comes out to a bit less than $2 per US gallon. Business doesn't stop because of it, and there's extra motivation to reduce the polluting transportation.
I'm generally not one to argue in favor of taxation, but fuel taxes are essentially user fees for the road system. Unless and until most cars use something as an energy source that's hard to tax in this way, it's a viable, and mostly fair way to pay for roads. There's even a significant correlation between a vehicle's fuel economy and how much damage it does to the road, as both are closely related to weight.
No, I don't. That strikes me as an opinion that's honestly debatable and strongly influenced by one's value system, especially with regard to what roles a government should and should not play in a society rather than an objective fact.
That said, I wasn't necessarily arguing that fuel taxes should only be used to pay for roads nor that roads should only be paid for using fuel taxes. Several people quoted in the article do make claims that are more or less equivalent to "driving should be taxed enough to pay for the roads" then go on to claim that mileage-based rather than fuel-based taxes are a better way to do so. I'm saying that claim is dubious.
Nearly everyone who derives benefit from the highway system, directly or indirectly helps pay the tax, directly or indirectly. Higher fuel taxes would translate directly to higher prices for goods and services that use the highway system. Other things supported by taxation may be different - education, for example. There's reason to believe that having a well educated population is good for everyone who lives in the society, even people who are not, at that time receiving education. User fees are contrary to the goal of educating as many people to a certain level as possible, so a different model probably works better.
it makes supporting the less popular elements of government spending harder
Well, in a government that's more or less democratic, implementing less popular policies should be harder than implementing popular ones. That's kind of the point.
Are you arguing that a policy's popularity should have no bearing on how difficult it is to enact and implement? That seems fundamentally incompatible with the idea of democratic government. Do you disagree, or would you like to advocate another form of government?
As a side note, John Adams was anything but a hardcore libertarian.
A pay once a year (or even monthly) mileage tax is extremely punitive on poor folks. The tax at the pump works the same way as withholding for income taxes. It allows management in chunks of a tax the can get very high.
The usual argument is that with electrics and hybrids, tax revenue is going down. OK, fine, raise the rate! Plenty of people are still driving internal combustion vehicles. Higher rates will spur adoption of more efficient vehicles, which is a good thing.
If we really want to charge by the mile, add an odometer reading to the smog check. There's no need for a complicated and privacy-invasive system to check how many miles you drive.
Electricity is also taxed quite heavily, so you aren't going to avoid all taxes by driving an electric or hybrid car.
Consider, (damage is normalized to a Ford F-150).
Weight Damage Gallons/mile
Honda Civic 2815 0.05 0.032
Toyota Prius 2921 0.05 0.020
Nissan Leaf 3291 0.09
Ford Transit Connect (me) 3500 0.11 0.50
Tesla Model S 4647 0.35
Ford F-150 Pickup 6000 1.0 0.059
Ford Excursion Diesel (bro) 7725 2.75 0.055
Maximum Loaded Truck 20000/axle 1970. (+other axles) 0.2
The Leaf does so little damage that we can ignore it. A Honda Civic weighs even less, but will be paying something like half what a pickup does for 1/20th of the damage. My brother's Excursion is doing about 25 times the road damage as my Connect, but we pay essentially the same gas tax. A truck with a maximally loaded axle is doing almost 2000 times the damage, for about 4 times the fuel tax.Clearly, fuel use as a proxy for road damage is flawed, but not because the light vehicles are getting away, more because the heavy vehicles are under paying. That exponent of four gets big in a hurry.
I propose: Assess road expenses into wear based maintenance, and all other costs. Then each vehicle pays based on their mileage and "wear factor" for wear based maintenance and just their mileage for the rest of the costs. The black boxes are needed in the US because our roads are paid for locally, you have to break out the payments to the right parties. It's not like we aren't tracked everywhere we go anyway. Keep the fuel tax as a carbon tax, import/trade balance deterrent, revenue source.
Edit: That proposal is going to need a rural subsidy, and possibly a freezing climate subsidy as well. By then it will get political and we'll probably end up with a tax on paint color by the time it is done.
Source?
EDIT: http://www.vabike.org/vehicle-weight-and-road-damage/ this?
If you tax peak drive time traffic higher, you could shift people to other patterns and not require more lanes to be added to urban highways. This can't be accomplished with a gas tax. (I used to never leave work between 4pm and 6:30pm to avoid my congested outer loop, I could have avoided tax on the unending parade of new lanes added over the past decade. If more people had joined me we could have saved quite a bit in construction costs.)
Gas consumption and road wear is at least correlated in the right direction, typically, but you could also do a more accurate job of accurately taxing for road wear by combining vehicle type, road type, and mileage.
The deal is that cars actually cause very little damage to the roads. Trucks are the real cause of road damage -- up to 80,000 pounds spread over five axles. Compare that to 4,000 pounds over two axles for a car (or 5-6k pounds for a loaded pickup or SUV) -- the per-axle weight is much higher for a truck.
The trucking lobby is very powerful in Washington, and will resist any effort to increase the diesel motor-fuels tax. They have a powerful argument in their favor: The majority of food in America is delivered by truck. Raise the tax, raise the cost of food.
But even outside of that, there's a simple way to get about a 20% increase in funds for repairing the roads & bridges, and that's to stop the diversion of funds out of the highway trust fund into the general fund. The tax money intended to go to build & maintain our crumbling transportation infrastructure, is instead being fed into the sausage factory where it gets turned into pork.
The food argument is bullshit, of course, but probably effective because it sounds nice. The truck fuel cost is a very tiny part of the actual food cost - taxes on farming fuel would impact food, but not that. Of course, extra taxes always create inflation; but fuel tax is probably the one most evenly spread across everything, as it affects burger prices just the same as Barbie prices.
There's also a tax on the vehicle itself. I want to say that it's in the $500 per year range, depending on it's GVWR and the state.
Looking at it that way it becomes clear that bikes and cars do effectively zero road wear and that trucks effectively cause all road wear.
As a result there should be "commercial" diesel for big trucks and non-commercial diesel for cars, pickups, etc. You can use dye the same way they do with farm diesel which is untaxed. And then charge about an extra dollar per gallon of tax on the commercial diesel which might roughly offset the actual wear these vehicles cause.
What that will do is shift a lot of cargo transport from truck to rail (which wouldn't pay the commercial diesel tax) and which is more fuel efficient anyhow. And if the train companies wanted to they could easily run their trains on natural gas; what's a single extra fuel car when you're already pulling 100 cars worth of cargo?
I don't know how you'd get legislation like that passed but it would solve a lot of problems by going after the source of said problems. I'd like to see real problem solving, not can-kicking.
Why is raising the gas tax not an option?
It is an option. You are currently witnessing an attempt to move the Overton Window [1] from "should we or should we not raise the gas tax" to "should we raise the gas tax or should we add a mileage tax with big brother tracking".Later legislators will tell us they've listened to us, and they're going to raise the gas tax instead of instituting a mileage tax. There will be much rejoicing.
In the UK ($8.50 per US gallon) it has encouraged people towards more efficient vehicles and the government has made electric vehicles free from yearly charges (Vehicle Excise Duty is based on emissions which again punish bigger engined cars).
Of note it is quite unusual to see an 18 year old with a car these days. Cost of fuel and insurance discourages the young from getting a car.
In fact there is a major push towards 'Active travel' (Cycling/walking/public transport).
Where I can see these type of devices finding a home is in reducing your insurance premiums. In fact I can see the Russian situation where something like this box with a dashboard cam will almost become mandatory. Well not so much mandatory, but as the only way to get cheap insurance.
This is one of those "uniquely American" problems.
You simply can't get any meaningfully-large group of US citizens to agree to raise taxes. On anything.
Even if it's in their own interest. Even if there is zero drawbacks of any kind. Americans will fight tooth-and-nail against anything that looks or feels like a "tax" of any kind.
In addition, many Americans already feel like the gasoline prices are "high" here. (Even though, factually, we live with very low subsidized prices: they're around $3.25 per US gallon here today).
Raising tax on fuel is not even fathomable.
You simply can't get any meaningfully-large group
of US citizens to agree to raise taxes. On anything.
Really?http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/us/politics/in-california-...
I was one of the voters that voted for the increase. I don't mind paying taxes most of the time; with them I buy civilization.
Just raise the gas tax to make up for lost revenue. Sick of hearing "we are addicted to oil" every state of the union and the answer is right there. Solves the road revenue problem as well.
There are two main drivers of tax policy. The bad, is that there is political gain to be made by making taxes less salient. If people don't notice they are being taxed, they will complain less. The article claims gasoline taxes are more salient than the proposed new technlology.
The good, is that the government wants to tax negative externalities, and give tax breaks for positive externalities, and possibly tax luxury items to make taxes more progressive (the last one isn't always good policy). The proposed policy may or may not achieve this - as mentioned, it does allow for congestion taxation.
So whether you are saying what the government should do, or what the government does do, the paradigm of a government desperate to obtain more revenue is a poor one.
Governments in general, at a federal level, might not be this way, but local cities and counties certainly often try many tricks. From "taxes" on driving, to abusing seizure laws. Hence the notion people have.
Still, all the more reason to make fine distinctions - in this case between local state and federal government
It's no surprise that, having found a great gimmick to divert money, while at the same time making it seem like the money is actually needed, that politicians want to see how far they can push it.
"Libertarians have joined environmental groups in lobbying to allow government to use the little boxes to keep track of the miles you drive, and possibly where you drive them — then use the information to draw up a tax bill."
Libertarians are for use tax and privatization of roads. Unless misled by clever wording, they would never support a state administered use tax that tracked your location.
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21588097-oregon-...
It does seem like raising the gas tax would be an easier option.
See my post where I outline the math: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=6623693
Number 2, the cost addition to government budget should be unacceptable and the cost of this program will increase the tax beyond what is needed.
If I drive the average number of miles per year (13,476 miles; http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm), and assuming the vehicle gets a modest 25 mpg, I'm currently paying $309.948/year in fuel taxes.
So, between the $310 for fuel taxes and the $101 for the license plate/tag fee, we're at $411/year, or $34.25/month.
I pay more in car insurance that that. Flat rate it and lets be done with it.
Up the existing tax and tax electric cars based on the amount of electricity they use. It is easy and simple.
My tollway transponder auto-debits my credit card just fine every month for the tolls I use, and has worked like this for over 8 years. Same concept, just no transponder.
Name. Vehicle info. License plate tag. Credit card info. Charge monthly. Email receipt. Done.
These big charges are nothing but poor and low income killers. Low income have to drive more do to pricing of housing. Never mind the various articles on low-income people no longer having bank accounts.
> Name. Vehicle info. License plate tag. Credit card info. Charge monthly. Email receipt. Done.
Good for you and not for large chunks of the US.
This seems like a crazy attempt to use tech to confuse people and trick them into paying higher tax. Tax which could/should come by the far more simple means of fuel tax. They should just suck it up and give their constituents some tough love.