Apple Just Cannibalized the MacBook Air | Hacker News Reader

Apple Just Cannibalized the MacBook Air

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27 pointsGriff80 comments

The price difference is $200 in the U.S. The wedge profile of the MBA makes it feel a lot smaller than the MBP (e.g. when shoving it in your briefcase). The trade-off for the lower-resolution screen is much better battery life. The MBA gets 15+ hours for web browsing with Mavricks. http://www.macrumors.com/2013/10/23/13-inch-2013-macbook-air...

I'm upping my MBA to an rMBP, but I can totally see why someone would get the former instead.

I'm still leaning Air for the battery life and 11" option, but the new Pro had me considering it, while before, it wasn't even on my radar. Adding a retina display to the Air would remove one of the things I'd like, but that likely won't come until there is substantial battery improvement elsewhere, I'd bet.

Apple made it abundantly clear that they wish to differentiate current Airs on battery when they doubled battery life instead of adding a retina/touch screen like the competition. However the 2013 Air is actually slightly slower than the 2012 one in CPU benchmarks [1]. I think this is the last hurrah for this generation of Airs. The current Air body is about as old as the Pro was then the Retina refresh occurred. I think next June Apple will release a new Air body and I can't wait to see it.

[1] http://anandtech.com/show/7085/the-2013-macbook-air-review-1...

Unless they come out with an 11" Macbook Pro, I'm sticking with the Air. If you have a 13" Air then yes, the pros have made more sense for awhile IMO. For me the 11" Air with 8 gigs of ram, i7 processor and a solid state drive plus a Thunderbolt display is the ideal setup. Super portable and powerful enough for anything but the latest 3d gaming plus the display for when I'm in the office.

I'd like to hear more about your experience working on the 11", when you're away from the external display. Are you cramped because of the resolution? Keyboard and trackpad?

I think the screen and trackpad are the same size for all MacBooks.

The trackpad on the 11" is smaller.

I use an 11" Air as my full-time machine. The keyboard (and, I believe, the trackpad) are the same size as the 13". I rarely find myself cramped by the resolution. A little bit more vertical space would be nice, but I can comfortably fit two 80-column text buffers side-by-side or do light image editing work without any trouble.

Easily my favorite computer I've ever owned.

I actually sold my 13" Retina MBP and bought an 11" Air and I'm happier. Hard to believe but the portability counts for a lot.

Up until recently, the 11" air had a higher resolution than the 13" macbook pros so you didn't feel cramped as far as resolution went. With expose it is easy to move around between windows and that helps a lot. If I'm doing a photoshop session I really like to be on the big display but most of the time I don't really notice when I'm without it. I work from home a lot and don't have a display there. It's fine.

I've used the Air as a full-time development machine in the past. It can be great if it fits how you write code. I write code in emacs or vim, so I would run that in a fullscreen terminal window under tmux, which allowed me to quickly switch between my editor and various zsh prompts.

I'd also have Chrome open in another fullscreen window, and use the four finger swipe gesture to navigate between the two.

For other apps I'd use hotkey combinations and Alfred to do as much navigation as possible to minimize using the cursor.

The biggest downside of the setup was when I needed to use a web page or video for reference while coding, which I basically couldn't do. I know a lot of coders like to have two monitors up so they can have a browser visible at the same time they are working in their editor, and none of them could understand how I could use the 11 for my main machine.

The resolution was a bit constrained for working in an IDE with a lot of information in frames, so it isn't idea, at least for me, of using IntelliJ or similar programs.

And that beings said, what really ended up killing it for me, is that the screen resolution is fairly high for the display size, or at least I thought so. Basically, type wound up being just a little smaller than I was comfortable with, and making it larger did leave me with too little space on the screen.

The battery life is missing from the table, probably because it contradicts the author's linkbait title.

He also treats weight as a non issue.

Is weight really an issue? We're talking less than a half pound difference between two laptops. I don't think that's an "issue".

If you travel a lot, every half-pound matters.

I've travelled a lot and I'd trade a half pound for (15% or so?) for a 60% faster processor!

Well, I would not.

There is also a concept of 'fast enough'. My 2013 MBA is fast enough for anything I want to do on it. Actually, my 2011 MBA was fast enough as well - I only upgraded because of awesome battery life in the 2013 model.

Further to that, I specifically chose the slower processor option (i5 vs i7) because i7 would reduce battery life (even if by 30 minutes).

He is doing his compare against the 13", the 11" Air is 2.38 pounds. It matters for me. I had an Air and now have a Pro and it is a bit of a pain. Also, the whole bag is more weight since it is bigger than the 11" version.

A half pound is barely something to care about when you're talking about non-handheld devices.

A half pound sounds like nothing, but the air is about 15% lighter than the 13" which is pretty significant.

Not really. The difference between 3.5lbs and 3lbs isn't even really something worth discussing when the device will always be resting on something when you're using it. If we were talking about the iPad or a similar tablet then yeah, of course that would be a big deal.

Well, yeah, if your laptop is always sitting on a table and you walk up and type on it without ever moving it, then you really have a desktop and weight is irrelevant.

But laptops get carried, they get held in odd positions while you're moving around. If they're light enough you can hold them above you in bed without your arms falling off. You can sit sideways on the couch and prop them on your knees. At that point, ever 18% lighter is very important.

That something it's resting on is my chest half the time, so yeah, it makes a difference.

The weight and size difference is negligible.

At this point in the game, I'm expecting battery life to become the primary point of the Air, rather than weight and size alone.

Many people don't need all the high-end specs of the Pro, but they definitely want battery life.

I'm anticipating that the future of the MBA line either includes a shift to Intel Atom processors or a line of Apple ARM chips.

If they go with ARM, my gut tells me that they will either run iOS on these new MBAs or a version of OS X that only runs apps sold via the App Store. That's why I'm guessing they'll go with Atom (or whatever Intel is offering at the power-sipping end).

The future for the Air is Apple getting serious about keyboard support in iOS.

The MBA is a product that exists largely because tablets didn't (at the time). If you had a light workload and wanted an "all day" battery, that was your choice. Today, people buy it because keyboard support on tablets is dodgy and maybe you need one or two apps that don't have a mobile or web alternative.

But in the time it would take for Apple to roll out an Atom or ARM switch, they could have much more easily and cleanly expanded the iPad up into the MBA's niche.

I think the iPad Air name is foreshadowing.

See, my theory is that the Air is going to further be cannibalized by the iPad Air. I agree, it'll go the way of ARM and run some sort of iOS/OSX hybrid. Think Surface 2. I can't foresee the Macbook Air surviving as a laptop.

Because the author is critical of Apple, it's link-bait? The title is hardly sensational.

What made you think the author is critical of Apple? Apple cannibalizes themselves all the time. It's one of the great things about them, that they're not afraid to do it.

Because "cannibal" has a negative connotation.

Is the battery life that big of a deal? It's something like 9 hours to 12 hours (or something close) for MBP vs MBA. I just don't see that as a major difference - it's not like a 1.7g vs 2.8g CPU.

Battery life is a way bigger deal than a 1.7g versus 2.8g CPU. My 2010 MBA with its circa-2008 CPU (Apple hung on to the Core 2 Duo for a long time) is plenty fast for me, even for development work. At this point, I'd much rather have a machine that I only had to charge once a week.

I think you sort of missed what I'm saying - we're talking about a MBP that has better battery life already than your 2010 MBA. The 2013 MBP has a 9-hour battery life compared to the 12-hour 2013 MBA battery life. That's a "difference" but is that extra three hours of battery life worth trading for a 60% faster processor? I don't see that as a good trade off.

Sorry, I read out the word "the". I thought you were saying "battery life is good enough."

I would rather have the 3 extra hours than the 60% faster processor (though I would rather have the retina display than the 3 extra hours). My aging MBA compiles LLVM, the biggest thing I ever build these days, in 10-12 minutes. Do I care if that number is 7-8 instead? Not really.

On the other hand, three extra hours can mean leaving the charger at home.

The rated CPU speed is nearly meaningless for machine responsiveness or even bursts of heavy usage (Photoshop edits; compiling changed files) given the dynamic voltage and frequency scaling ("Turbo"). Both the "1.7 GHz" 4650U in the Air and the "2.8 GHz" turbo to the same peak of 3.3 GHz, have the same sized cache, same memory interface, same base GPU clock, nearly the same peak turbo GPU clock, and cost the exact same number of dollars. They are the "same" CPU, with different tuning for sustained thermal allowances.

9 to 12 hours in year one, vs 6.5 to 9.5 in year 3

The battery life estimate on Apple's site is 9 hours for the 13" Retina MBP and 12 hours for the 13" Air. The Air will run longer, but they probably both run long enough.

Eric Griffin seems to have different needs than I do. The relevant comparison for me is 13" Air with 256GB flash, 8GB RAM, 1.7GHz i7, and 12 hours estimated battery life for $1,549.00 or the 13" RMBP 256GB flash, 16GB RAM, 2.4GHz i5, and 9 hours of estimated battery life for $1,699.00. (Haswell i5s have hyperthreading, so the upgrade to the i7 does very little). This is $150 for twice the RAM, a great display, and 3/4 the battery life. It really does make the 13" Air seem silly.

IMHO the "real" MBA, from the point of view of what happens when you use it as your main computer, is the 11" version, and there is a huge difference between that computer and the MBP 13".

The MBA11 means that your computer is from the point of view of portability no much more than an iPad with a keyboard. It has a minimal weight, minimal impact even on a very small table, and when you close it you can walk with it in your hand like if it was a tablet.

Also it is a computer comfortable to stay near the couch if you want to grab it and quickly search for something. It has impressive battery life.

Basically the MBA is a different computing experience, IMHO. I use solely that and in my normal business I just attach it to a big screen, keyboard, wireless mouse, external backup disk, and so forth (everything except the screen is just a single USB cable that goes to the Hub).

When I grab it, I restart working from the bathroom or while waiting for my son music lesson, exactly from where I left.

Among the apple products, the 11" air seems like a oddball option to me. Two things

1. For people who say it is like an iPad with a keyboard, I find that the iOS apps I use (games, camera, touch based things) are very different than those on the MBA (Developer tools + Adobe stuff). So not sure what the connection to the iPad is. It is not even touch enabled. How can you say you are getting an iPad/Tablet experience without touch??

2. I find the 11" pretty cramped (keyboard space and screen size) to be honest. Especially if you spend more than a few minutes working. Looks like you find it too, given you have to put in additional paraphernalia (keyboards, external disks etc.) to make it work. It also has a much poorer battery life compared to the 13" counterpart.

Umm, the 11" and 13" use the same keyboard -> http://blog.timecenter.com/content/uploads/2010/08/macbook-a...

Nope. Look at the keyboard pad space, much smaller on 11". Unless you have baby size hands, your wrists will feel like they are hanging in the air and become uncomfortable pretty soon.

The retina display on the 13" MBP actually results in less application real estate at native resolution than the 1440x900 on the MBA. It's also half a pound heavier, more expensive and with significantly poorer battery life. In my opinion, the 13" MBA is the best laptop Apple makes, and is the best computer I've ever owned.

As an owner of the Air, I really do not see why would I want to upgrade to the Pro. It is heavier(marginally,but still!), and the Retina screen is something I would really struggle with. I have the 15" Retina as well,and it's only usable in either the native mode,or at half the resolution. Any resolution in between introduces blur which drives me crazy. The problem with the 13" Retina is, that at half the resolution, you end up with....less workspace than on the 13" Air! And the native resolution is way too small. So why would I swap my Air for the Retina Pro? I really don't know.

Exactly how I feel.

My wife has MBP 15' Retina and I simply don't find its screen better than my MBA.

I only use applications in maximized screen mode (but have 7 desktops that I switch between). So the whole 'Retina is better' mantra is lost on me.

The author does not do a fair comparison in price... The Air costs $1299 for 256 Gb SSD with ~12 hours battery life the 13-in Pro is $1299 with 128 GB flash and ~9 hours of battery life. The pro's advantage is Retina display and better processor, but let's get honest, who needs more than a dual core 1.3 GHz for most stuff? The battery life is worth the decrease.

Can't believe nobody mentioned this, but for me the Air is still the winner because it has more usable screen space.

The 13" rMBP, while nice, only has an effective resolution of 1280x800, which I find to be unusable.

With the Air you get 1440x900 at a DPI that's still pretty nice.

The simulated 1440x900 mode on the 13" rMBP is very nice.

huh? the pro has more pixels, and you can scale the ui up/down as you prefer. i'm pretty sure you get way more effective screen space at the highest density setting.

The highest density(native res) is too small to work with, half resolution that scales every pixel 4x gives you actually less workspace than the Air does. Anything in between is blurry. Really, the Retina crammed a lot of pixels into that screen,but without any effective way to use them efficiently.

They allow native res access now?

No, you need a special program to enable it.

Does that program still work in mavericks?

I'm nearsighted and can see that with little issue.

ah, i see, didn't realise the inbetween scaling was blurry. on the 15 i find the inbetween scaling pretty good myself.

Nope, got the new 13inch retina today, and it has 1680x1050 resolution. It astonishingly usable in that resolution, although I was sceptical before, my doubts are gone. Only thing: When working with my 17inch macbook, suddenly everything looks so freakishly large!

It has scaled-mode resolutions including 1440x900, 1680x1050, and maybe 1920x1200, which all have noticeable annoyances.

I'm not able to create the author's specced out 13" MBA on Apple's site right now, I can't find a way to get the 512GB SSD.

I also think the price comparison is disingenuous, as you have to opt for Apple's very expensive upgrades to get even close to the price of the MBP.

The MBP is also upgraded, but the SSD upgrade (most important IMO) comes stock in the MBA, and adds at a minimum $200 to the MBP. Much more if you actually go with the 512 GB as the author suggested.

The stock MBA is plenty powerful for your average user, and hundreds of dollars cheaper than the MBP.

I really don't see the need for the Air at this point except to go to the eleven inch size. The 13s are just to close in price with Pros and the Pro has such better resolution for very little more.

The disappointment I have with Apple is that I have to start with the top of the line FIFTEEN inch Pro to get discreet graphics. (non Intel).

That half pound difference won't even be noticeable to me, not with everything else I cram in my case.

Some people prefer the 11' MBA for portability and perhaps the MBA still has more battery life: 12 hours potentially 14-15 hours with Mavericks while the rMBP is announced at 9 hours. However, I think you would eventually be right, rMBP and MBA might fuse into one product in further generations due to their rapproaching similarities.

"Would you buy a MacBook Air after the latest MacBook Pro update?"

I can't see why anyone has bought a 13" MBA since the first retina screen was announced 2+ years ago.

I'm still nursing a late 2008 MBA along until there is a retina option. Why bother otherwise ?

Pixel art is a disaster on Retina. It's rare but I could see an indie gamer/game programmer going for the bigger pixels of the Air.

I'm sure there are other applications that also don't translate well.

It's true, there are some issues, but Retina is amazing for the day to day. Being able to see the pixels that constitute a glyph or image has become distasteful to me.

Not if you run your retina display in it's native resolution, which I do (2880x1800 and everything is tiny as hell!)

As the owner of a 2012 Air, I don't see why would I upgrade to the Retina Pro. Heavier(yes, marginally,but still, and no, half a pound is not non-noticable), and the retina screen is a disaster from a usability perspective. The only modes which work well are either native res(which makes everything way too small) or half res, which means you end up with less usable space than on the Air. Anything in between is horrible thanks to blur(I have a uni-issued 15" Retina,and would not want to have that effect on my Air,thank you very much).

I don't think I will ever upgrade to the 13" Retina, unless something happens that I will absolutely need the faster cpu, but right now, I am planning on updating to the 2013 Air model, Retina Pro is not even something I would consider.

At this point, I wouldn't mind them coming out with a new form factor for the MacBook Air with the same screen from the iPad Air. Lots of pixels and a 3:4 ratio[1].

1) Truthfully, a retina 11 1/4" 3:4 Macbook Air would be a dream

Exactly what I was thinking I currently got a air 13 inch & i'm like fuck for 0.5 pound I much prefer having the new 13 pro.

Specially since upgrading the air cpu (& being still less powerful) puts you roughly at the same price.

I was kind of wondering about this as well, the line between the smallest low end Macbook Pro and the high end Macbook Air is blurring. Perhaps they will eventually roll all the Macbooks into one product line again?

The 11" Air is the ultimate hacker computer. I take it everywhere because it's so small and light. That I can be hacking within moments wherever I am is too appealing for me to consider anything else.

A few years ago mine was a 10" tablet with the apple bluetooth keyboard in an origami stand.

> That I can be hacking within moments wherever I am is too appealing for me to consider anything else.

This is more attractive to me than other specs, and I suppose there is a lot of intrinsic value in a device that makes me want to code more often and in more places.

As the proverb says, "If you don't cannibalize yourself, your competitors will do."

Maybe off-topic. Sorry.

Did the flamewar mechanism of HN kick in for that article :-) ?

The author is a moron. The MBA is a much better machine for the average user and their pricing reflects that. As a developer, I would take the 13" MBA over the MBP. Also the author forgets the 11" Macbook Air.

This is just dumb. I don't think the author understands how business works, or more specifically how Apple works.

Dude, civility.

What are your specific reasons, why would you take the 13" MBA over the 13 MBP?

1. Battery life 2. Weight 3. Cost - you don't have to spec up MBA and go with base model

so tell us, how does it work then?

Well, I was pretty committed to getting an Air as my travel machine, as I am building a desktop at home but still need something portable, and the performance gains of the small Pro have me reconsidering, plus the Retina display is such an upgrade for me (although I am still leaning Air, mainly for the 11'inch model).

Why does criticism of Apple products bring out rage in people as if they're being personally attacked?

Why do users need to 'get' or furthermore 'approve' of how Apple works?

> As a developer, I would take the 13" MBA over the MBP

Weird thing to say considering the decrease in specs with the MBA. Are you the type of developer that compiles code and wants to do so quickly?

He only uses vi.

Actually, I do primarily use VIM.

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