Hacker News Reader

Comment by kleiba | Hacker News Reader

Frankly, I never understood why anyone should be proud because they happen to be of a certain nationality.

It's not pride of being born at a certain location (that's coincidence), It's pride to be part of a community (state, city, organization, ...) that makes good, rational decisions. Like how you can be proud if you live in a country with a sensible healthcare system or patent system, or proud to work at a company with good policies and a healty work environment.

Why should you be proud of being part of a community that makes good, rational decisions? That's also coincidence.

(You should be happy and thankful, perhaps. But not proud, because, to any reasonable approximation, you have had nothing to do with it.)

One of the advantages of living in a democracy means that you do get a say in who gets elected to make the laws. The main disadvantages are that other people do too, and that the pool of politicians you draw from is mostly unappetizing.

By that logic, we can't hold people responsible for electing idiots.

Because hopefully you're part of this community by choice. I chose to move to Silicon Valley and be part of the community there precisely because I was dissatisfied with the communities I lived in prior to that; in effect, I vote with my time and taxes.

I agree that being proud of where you're born is silly; but being proud of where you chose to live is slightly different.

Hmm. But then, as an American, does that mean I shouldn't let the bad things my government does bother me except inasmuch as it affects myself?

The assumption of course being that it only applies to communities where you have some say in the matter, such as through democracy.

I'm proud I rolled a 6 on my dice.

But... that's one less than average! (Assuming 2d6)

Who wants to be average?

It's like being proud of coincidence. Weird, but hey, why not?

Because it skews your priorities and introduces more cognitive biases?

Why is it so strange to be proud of the blessings of good fortune?

If you are born beautiful, can't you be proud of it?

If you are part of an ancient and rich civilization, can't you be proud of it?

I guess if you are ancient and rich you could be proud of it . If your papers say you were born in an ancient and rich group but you're none, what should you be proud of ?

It really boils down to you as an individual vs the country you are enlisted in.

You can respect it and count your blessings but what are you proud for if you didn't contribute anything to it?

Now if you are part of an ancient and rich civilization and you continue to further that civilization, that you can be proud of.

If one does enough regression in analysis, even your contributions and works can be traced to genes and environment you didn't exactly choose.

Why wouldn't personal beauty, health or intelligence be considered part of that civilization - and if I procreate, I am furthering it :)

Well procreating is an achievement in itself, so it is something you can be proud of.

If you have not heard of Kurt Vonnegut's term 'granfalloon', you may be interested in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon .

A granfalloon is a false karass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism .

Because nationality is a choice? I have two, and am working on a third one.

You can be proud of anything or anyone who you can identify with or somehow are connected with, without any accomplishment on your part.

You can be proud of your kids because they belong to you. You can be proud of your family because you belong to it. You can be proud of your favorite sports team because you root for them.

BUT if you can be proud of it for its accomplishments, you also should be ashamed of it because of its errors.

Nationalists are people who love to claim the accomplishments of their country, but deny its errors.

EDIT: This is not to say that one has to mention all errors everytime one expresses pride.

Will you be proud of your children sometimes? Because they could have been born in any family in the world...

The question is whether your children should be proud of the accomplishments of their parents. Presumably, you have some responsibility for the accomplishments of your children.

Then couldn't a voter be proud of the accomplishments of the people that have been elected?

Though it may look otherwise, the opinions of citizens have a fair weight in government policy.

Probably a defensive reaction to all the negative comments made about a nationality... and to prevent the children(and even adults) of said nationality from internalizing the negativity. In short, to provide balance.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com