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Comment by sachinag | Hacker News Reader

The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. The process of getting on board, promotion, and success is a total black hole. First movers such as ngmoco and Tapulous have done well; people with better apps - for free - have failed. Maaaaaaaybe 3.0 makes it easier for niche plays to work; certainly, as far as I can tell, add-on payments aren't supported in Palm's marketplace. I do think the Apple folks are improving the platform. But they act like jerks.

Apple can fuck over iPhone devs, and they do. Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave.

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I always respond this way, and I always get scorned here. But, the iPhone platform has worked for us. Updates have been a bit slow, but we feel like we have been rewarded for our work.

Some things are tricky and unintuitive, but that's the way it is in any market. Selling a product just isn't easy. You are always fighting against smart people, and there are unknowns.

I feel like people shouldn't get into the App Store market thinking that they will make a million dollars their first app. Only a few people can succeed like that at any time. But, if you jump through Apple's hoops, listen to your customers, and try and serve a real need, you can make a living on the iPhone.

People expect launching an iPhone app to be like launching a website, which you can do in a single day. They expect to be able to push whatever code they want, and push releases whenever they want.

Well, the App Store isn't like that. And while my website is fun and cool, it doesn't make much money. My iPhone app does.

I think all the developers want is some clear guidelines and transparency into the approval process and some recourse when they feel they have a good argument why their rejected apps should be approved. I think if those two things were in place, most developers would be satisfied. As things stand now, your app is just an update away from rejection by Apple and they don't even have to give you a reason.

My only answer is, the market has spoken. Apple's process may be kludgy and untransparent at times, but they have the dominant App Store and phone for a reason.

Some how they have succeeded in enthralling tons of developers and tons of end users. I can't help think that part of that is that because the process is actually pretty good in the scheme of things.

It would be really expensive to deal with every bitchy developer who had a problem, personally.

I mean, Google operates the same way and they are great. It's nearly impossible to email anyone for support for any Google product.

"Dominant" is an arguable point - Apple's actual market share, especially here in Europe, is not huge - actually it's fairly small, although of course they only have one phone, whereas companies like Nokia have a large range. Obviously, the iPhone has made a huge impact though - it's clear to everyone that they're leaders. We'll see where things go.

I am a European, I don't know a single person who buys apps on anything else than the Apple App Store. I call that Dominant. Frankly the concept was quite unheard of before the App Store (i.e. other stores existed, but nobody cared). Nokia has a large range of phones, but until know they haven't shown they know how to run a platform. Although I am sure that will change.

Oh, to be clear I was talking about the phone. They are certainly way ahead in terms of their app store. However, I'd still bet that the number of people buying apps on Apple's store is tiny compared to the number of phone users, so there's a big 'negative space' to consider there.

Come to think of it though, in terms of buying things, the 'biggest' market is probably all those crappy ring tones and things of that ilk, although it's probably not of much interest to 'hacker news' types.

Sure it is... we're entrepreneurs and you're pointing out something that seems to be selling. This is useful - even if it is a bit obvious - it helps guys like me think outside the iphone box a bit.

I really can't understand why so many people are angry about the app store. No other company has managed to put together a market for phone software of comparable size and ease of development. Nokia, Windows Mobile, Blackberry, Android, Palm, they are all trying but failing to create a user experience within striking distance of the iPhone app store.

So how can you complain?? If it weren't for Apple it would be orders of magnitude harder to make money on phone software.

The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers.

No. You want a terrible platform, you try writing software for the Nokia platform. Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. It's not a coincidence more apps are sold for the iPhone than for any other platform.

Apple has provided the best user experience and has the most users who are willing to buy apps. They are doing you a great service by allowing third party apps and promoting apps that hit their "best of" lists for free. Just because the experience isn't perfect doesn't mean Apple is "fucking over iPhone devs".

I wouldn't call a service that's rejected apps seemingly on a reviewer's whim with no recourse or dispute process "not perfect"; I'd call that downright abysmal.

I've had one of my apps rejected because I used the an icon incorrectly (it was for submitting a request, but the icon was only supposed to be used for sending messages. huh?). A tiny change in IB and it was accepted a week later. Yet crap like this gets through no problem: http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png And that's not even a bad case by a long shot.

Based on Apple's own numbers, about 1 in 20 app store submissions are being rejected. There's no way to know how many of those are legitimate rejections (I'm willing to bet a lot), but that's a pretty scary number of apps that should be let through that aren't.

The changes they need to make to drastically improve the experience for devs are really minor. I don't know why Apple's making them, other than a tradition of insane levels of secrecy in their corporate culture. That or they're just too embarrassed to let people see into their review structure. Either way, something is broken.

I agree with your first sentence but the point is that application acceptance to AppStore policy does not constitute entire platform. I am curious, why this part of the otherwise very nice platform is so screwed.

> Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone.

Developing applications for the Android platform is an absolutely wonderful process; I can build apps in Eclipse on any platform, plug in my phone via USB, instantly upload the compiled code, and run the app with a full debugger suite in Eclipse allowing me to debug apps as they're running on the phone, with breakpoints, full listing of in-scope variables, and a list of all process threads. And I haven't even had to pay a developer fee! Imagine that...

And while I haven't personally put an app on the Market, I've heard that the Market process is really straightforward and simple. And some of the apps I've downloaded have had multiple new versions available in a single week, so it's not slow, lumbering, and full of pitfalls like the App Store process.

The coincidence is just that Apple has spent more on marketing and branding for the iPhone than other platforms, and they were the "first" to have an all-in-one smartphone device with a decent UI, but they are by no means the "best" on the market. They just spend a lot of money and resources to get everyone to think they are.

" And some of the apps I've downloaded have had multiple new versions available in a single week"

Not sure if having to update the same app multiple times in one week is something I'd like to do as a consumer. I like the release early, release often strategy for development, but when the app is running on someone else's device I'd like to see people put a little more attention into the quality of the software they ship. Why exactly does someone need to update their app multiple times in one week?

In this case, it's a game, and there was a feature release with some new configuration options, and then two days later, a bug-fix release for one of the options under certain user conditions. In this case, maybe the bug could have been prevented, but the fact that the developer was able to get a fix release turned out in a very reasonable timeframe is what's important.

Shit happens, and updating to fix a bug should not have a two-week latency where some reviewer could all of a sudden decide that your app is now rejected or no longer meets some amorphous criterion.

Are you joking? I can't tell.

This is the age of web applications and permanently net-connected smart phones. Who are you to tell me I can't fix a typo or push a bugfix more than once a week?

No, not joking. I understand that you can fix a website instantly and as often as you like, but these are not websites we're talking about, they are applications that users have to download and install. If any desktop application I ran had multiple bug fix updates per week every week I would be pretty worried about the overall quality of the application and of their development process.

Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave.

I'm not an iPhone developer, nor have I ever developed anything for the Mac platform specifically. Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well, but I do take issue with the part of your comment I've quoted.

I'd like some examples about why you would expect to be treated poorly (or as you put it abused) by Apple. Is it only based on their track record with app developers? If so perhaps it's a problem rooted in the iPhone app process itself and not systemic to the whole company, as you imply. I would need more examples of Apple's abusive policies to understand your statement, for now though I'm not going to write off Apple as horrible corporation because some app developers cry foul (to which, according to the blogger's own admission, Apple attempts to promptly respond to and rectify).

Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well.

Those stories are the worst experiences and are not representative of the majority of iPhone development. The Apple app store is handled worlds better than any other phone. No other platform is even usable to the extent that you see people complain about it.

Just because you're only hitting me softly, when the other guys are hitting me hard, doesn't mean I shouldn't ask you to stop.

But they act like jerks.

With the exception of the session that is mentioned in this article, I'm going to have to disagree.

To counter with my own anecdote in here, I work on a few apps (mac and iphone) and every time I went down to a lab to talk to an engineer directly, I was able to get help and have my problem solved. Issues ranged from bugs in Apple's code (with 10.6, and will be fixed by release) to App Portal/App ID issues, to bugs in my own code.

http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_revi...

This wouldn't have gotten the love it did if it didn't ring all-too-true to all-too-many people.

Ringing true doesn't make it true.

I’ve also learned that many of the problems aren’t intentional: many parts of Apple’s internal infrastructure are overloaded or extremely outdated, and they’re scrambling to keep up with their growth, often ineffectively.

One major surprise was when an Apple employee told me that the App Store reviewers are not outsourced: they’re all direct, full-time Apple employees. Many of them work nights and weekends to keep up with the extremely high submission volume, and they’re constantly expanding the staff to keep up with the submission growth.

Source? Why, the very same post that Gruber is quoting in this submission.

My understanding, from a contact within Apple, is that the reviewers are indeed Apple FTEs. It wasn't clear if they were somewhere on the main campus or in one of the satellite buildings, but I was led to believe they are in Cupertino.

Certainly some of the stats I was able to get from testers (thanks PinchMedia) suggest the testers have access to the AT&T network in the US. I could probably find IP addresses from Apple's /8 if people wanted to try to validate further.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I mentioned the iPhone Dev Portal, and code-level issues having problems solved, not that the App Store was magically fixed with 5 minutes of talking to an engineer.

Apple, Inc., not its individual developers, treats iPhone developers horribly. As a rule, Apple shields itself with layer upon layer of corporate bureaucratic armor, and the value of WWDC is cutting through that nonsense. However, at the one session about the appstore submission process, Apple stonewalled developers.

And yet, don't iPhone USERS have the best user experience of any (mobile) platform?

I guess that depends on the user. The user who wanted basic stuff like MMS, multi-tasking and tethering hasn't been getting the best experience.

Or the user who actually uses a phone to make calls.

Heh, I didn't want to start a opinion war but you have a point. One of the iPhone users I know actually went out and bought another phone to use in his car because he was so sick of dropped calls.

I thought the dropped call problems were over until yesterday. I have to turn off 3G in order to make a call. This phone is pathetic when it comes to making calls. My razr was so much better as a phone.

This has to be somewhat location specific. AT&T seems to have some of the best reception where I usually spend most of my time, the Gulf and East Coasts. The iPhone seems to get as good or better reception than my old Nokia (disclaimer: this was a very old Nokia). Apparently it is terrible on the West Coast.

Of course these are isolated data points. I do think that Apple has made a mistake by limiting the iPhone to one carrier, especially one that can arouse strong hatred like AT&T.

I'm sure that's AT&T. I'm in Australia and there's been no such problem personally or from anything I've heard.

Apple chose them as their exclusive US carrier, so I don't see much sense in passing the buck. But we use different frequencies for the most part so it could still be a phone problem and you would not experience the same issue.

There were initial issues with Optus in Australia - their network wasn't prepped for the volume the iPhone delivered, so disconnections and poor connections were common complaints for the first 2-3 months. I believe that's been sorted now.

I've had issues on Telstra. Sometimes the phone UI will prevent you from answering the call. Sometimes the phone crashes mid-call. Sometimes you answer the phone and you can hear the other party but they can't here you.

A similar thing happens on my Sony Ericsson S500 phone on Vodafone.

I don't know if it's the phone or the network - I haven't done much testing. It's quite irritating pressing the answer button repeatedly and the phone not answering the call, or when I call someone and I end up unable to hear them while they can hear me.

I've heard of a couple of complaints about low signal strength. (compared to other phones on the same network). (this was in Oz - think it may have been optus)

Possibly, but that's because Optus has a pretty sucky network for everyone. I understand (from reading whirlpool) that their new 3G network is not iPhone compatible as it's 900MHz

I think your information's out of date. I use Optus 3G on an iPhone in an area which was in exactly that position, but they upgraded a week before the iPhone came out. I think that upgrade happened nationwide. (Not that it's relevant to this thread, I know, but...)

I think your response was perfectly relevant to the conversation. It's all about discussion here!

It may just be AT&T in some regions too. I have never experienced the level of frustration that seems to emanate from iphone users in the Bay Area (I'm in Oregon).

Yeah, I experience problems with mine as well. Not dropped calls, but rather the software/OS freezing/crashing more often than it should. I expected much more from Apple in that regard.

Believe it or not, I originally purchased the iPhone for the ease of making calls, placing people on hold to answer the other caller, merging multiple callers and using the speakerphone option. It does not get much easier than the one button option and I haven't had any problems. A bonus was being able to load Skype and use it while in Mexico to avoid the ridiculous international rates.

Other "basic" stuff not in the iphone: pedometer, dual bootability and quantum teleportation.

OK, I'll give you MMS.

Multi-tasking and tethering have been standard smartphone features for a long time. I can personally remember those as far back as 2001.

To be totally honest, I had to look up what tethering meant today as I had no idea what the term meant.

Disclaimer: The closest I own to a smart phone is one of these email/phone/web devices they sell in Japan that has a pita interface to use.

True, but the iPhone is new whereas other phone oss' have been around for years. It takes time and manpower to code for these, and you have to start somewhere.

Yeah, and the iPhone started with OS X and went from there. Something tells me OS X can multi-task.

(Keep in mind: Playing music and txting / getting phone calls is multi-tasking.)

You forget. Apple's whole strategy is to remove features in order to focus a product. Apple wins by doing less than everyone else.

Who else sells a computer with only one mouse button? Who else sells a phone with only one button? No copy/paste? Awful APIs that prevent you from really reading camera data? First iPod had less disk space than any other player First iPod had no windows support Safari's extension support are crappy relative to FF or even IE OSX dock can display 1/100th the apps of menus on other OSes

Apple's strategy is to cut features. This is roughly equivalent to asceticism: finding enlightenment by doing less. Like asceticism, this seems a bad idea on the surface, but some people really seem happier doing it.

MMS is useful for talking to old legacy phones :/ Nice to have, but hardly critical.

In Europe everyone has MMS.

Tho' this is becoming less important because people on all platforms just post to Facebook or Flickr directly from their phones now, but even so, lack of MMS hurt iPhone early on.

Disagree. I doubt many iPhone users really mind. You email people your pictures instead of MMS :/ they get them when they're at their computer if their phone can't do email.

(I'm in Europe, not everyone has MMS).

Actually it was the other way round - my iPhone wielding friends complained that people kept sending them MMS messages that they had to visit a website to see!

Receiving MMS on the iPhone (on AT&T) has been a total joke so far.

You get a text message that says to go to viewmymessage.com with some ridiculous username & password pairing. Since you can't copy & paste, or multi-task, you have to somehow remember what that combination is. Of course, once you've managed to pull up the page, you find out that the multi-media part of the message is a SWF... Which the iPhone doesn't support.

I hear WWDC10 will unveil Grand Central Teleportation.

The user who wants his phone to just work without having to launch process monitors all the time would probably get a worse experience if multitasking was done wrong.

The iPhone, with rare exception, obeys the UI convention that leaving an app closes the app rather than leaving it running in the background. The exceptions to that (Phone and iPod) indicate at the top of the screen that they're still running in the background. OK, so third party apps could have that too. But once you start adding taskbars and process monitors to the phone, you still lose something.

Or perhaps people really just don't care that much? You'd think if it was so terrible people would not develop for it. The fact it continues to grow and arguably flourish is a pretty good indication there's more good than bad.

It's an indication of the motivational factor of the promise of money. Every gold rush "success story" sends N more enterprising individuals chasing after the big payout.

I've met our payroll for months on iPhone contract work and licensing, but not one of our clients or customers has made back their initial investment. I hear the same from other iPhone developers.

Moreover, we've found Apple to be capricious in their regular and seemingly inescapable rejections, absolutely impossible to contact directly for any reason, and in the worst cases, only responsive to bad press.

Personally, I wouldn't write another in-house iPhone application for love or money, but I'm happy to capitalize on the gold rush while I focus on other platforms.

The floggings will continue until morale improves...

So why stay? Love?

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