Ask HN: Should I go to Sweden for work?

I moved to Stockholm from the US earlier this year. The salary is supposedly good for Stockholm, but about 20-30% lower than offers I had in the US. I took it because I particularly loved the idea of living in Sweden, and I was not disappointed.

Comparing the cost of living is difficult. I don't know anything about the lifestyle in Moscow, but the US is so extremely different from Sweden that it turns out I did all of my comparisons wrong... I thought my expendable income would go down by moving here, but it actually went up. This is not because Stockholm is cheaper (it's much, much more expensive), but because I imitate the Swedish lifestyle, and the Swedish lifestyle is much cheaper than the American lifestyle :)

Swedish salaries aren't going to make you wealthy, they are just going to make you comfortable. And if you live your whole life here and retire here, the government programs will keep you comfortable through your retirement. It's a good system to live in long-term, but it's not the most competitive for short-term positions.

Most of my friends here are non-Swedish europeans, and I really only see two stances: either they moved here because they needed a job and they can't wait to move home, or they moved here because they wanted to live in Sweden and they love it. Marriage complicates it even more... some love it, but their spouses desperately want to move home. (good news: young children seem to transition very well)

If you or your wife is particularly against moving to Sweden, drop it immediately. You'll probably never get over that. But if it sounds like a fun adventure, then it probably is! If the first thing you want to do here is find some surströmming and köttbullar, you'll have a good time... if the first thing you want to do is find other Russian expats and a Russian food market, it's going to be a long winter.

Do you find there's any language barrier or have you picked up the language?

I'm terrible with languages... it will probably take 5 years to reach 'conversational' levels.

My company is extremely international, and all business is done in english, so there is no problem. Other companies I interviewed with did bring it up as a problem. Startups seem to care very little, major corporations care a lot.

I would think that since you are living in the country if you take a night course (or something equivalent) you could probably learn a lot quicker than someone living outside the country.

Immersion helps a lot for languages.

Immersion helps, but it's pretty easy not to become immersed in Scandinavia, because everyone both speaks good English, and switches to it quite quickly when they realize you're a foreigner. It's possible to ask them to please speak Danish/Swedish/Norwegian because you're learning, and many people will then switch back, but the immediate switch to English is basically default (especially in Denmark).

I've lived in Denmark for 2 1/2 years and probably have had less real need to speak Danish here than in the 3 weeks I spent in Spain! More Spaniards are either unable or unwilling to speak English, so that trip was much more immersive language-wise, in that I actually had to interact in Spanish.

Don't be to hard on the Spanish. I lived there for some time and can attest to that most Spaniards really would like to improve their English but find it incredibly difficult to do so. This is especially true for the spoken language.

My personal theory is that Spanish Spanish (i.e., from Spain) has a range of spoken sounds that is to a large part complimentary to that of English, thus making the transition between these two languages particularly difficult. (Note that there is significantly less of a difference between the sounds of American Spanish and English).

I'm having thoughts on moving from Stockholm to the US (NJ or NY). It would be interesting to know how e.g. taxes are different between the US and Sweden.

Where do I find information like this? Taxes, costs of living - everything. How did you do before you moved to Sweden?

Taxes are easy to look up. There are calculators where you input your salary and the state you will live in and it'll spit out a pretty close number. Expect somewhere around 30% income tax for a middle-class salary.

Numbeo is ok for comparing the cost of items, but it's not clear how your consumption will change. My consumption is much lower in Stockholm.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...

Cars are expensive, but hopefully you don't need one if you're looking at NY metro.

The big differences that are harder to predict are insurance, healthcare, and retirement. Healthcare costs can be sudden, large expenses ($2-20k USD) even if you have insurance through your employer... to be safe, you need to keep a pretty gigantic emergency fund. If you don't have insurance through your employer, you will probably bankrupt.

Children, college, and retirement cost more than you will ever earn. Don't do any of those things!

Out of curiosity, what do you find cheaper about the Swedish lifestyle? Moving from California to Denmark, I have sort of a vague feeling that's true for me also, but having trouble coming up with any specifics! I did get rid of my car, which is one big source of savings on insurance/gas/maintenance (plus a nice one-time $10k from selling it). But apart from that, I'm not too sure what's different. Maybe I eat out less as well, and do more picnics in the summer.

I haven't been to Sweden, but I assume he's talking about not being that keen on hanging out at the shopping mall where you get overcharged for shitty food when you get hungry from buying too much stuff you don't really need and spending half an hour looking for parking space after a 30km high-traffic ride from home.

I can tell you a little about Sweden's culture, as I've just moved to Sweden as part of a study abroad program at my university in the USA. Sweden is amazing; it's very clean, and there is very little crime here. The average standard of living here is very high, and as a result, Sweden is crazy expensive. Also, Swedes can be kind of cold. Someone in one of my classes told me that it is uncommon for Swedes to make new friends after 21. Maybe that person was exaggerating, but I have noticed that people here are less open. The tech scene is very welcoming though. I've been to a few tech events around the city, and the people there have been very helpful and nice. I think Stockholm is a great place to live, and if you have a salary that matches the standard of living here (unlike my student budget), I think you will enjoy it.

There was a mass shooting by a gang in one of the Ghettos yesterday. Before that a couple of clicks east of there, a guy got stabbed in a tunnel. Before that a lady who passed out outside her door (forgot her keys, was drunk) got dragged into her apartment and raped by her neighbours (who ended up bragging about it to other neighbours) All in a Sunday.

There's more Crime in Sweden than you think.

Of course there are crimes, but statistically it might be lower than in other places. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

Let's not exaggerate the crime in Sweden. The best measure for crime is the homicide rate (since death is harder to fake than for example theft, and since it rarely goes unreported as for example rape). The homicide rate for Sweden is 1/10 of that of Russia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

You were slightly ahead of me :)

Speaking as a Finn, it's a cultural aspect common to all Nordic countries that there's much less of the sort of superficial friendliness to strangers or acquaintances than what is normative in the US. But when you do make friends with one of us Northerners, it's often a "till death do us part" sort of affair.

Oh, and for better or worse, alcohol is the social lubricant and a primary way of making friends in the Northern Europe even moreso than in most other places.

friendliness scale

more friendly -> less friendly

Denmark -> Norway -> Sweden -> Finland

I'm sure there are lots of questions and it's hard to address all of them. Some spontaneous thoughts:

- Stockholm is really expensive, housing as well as other living expenses[1]

- Salaries are okay, but probably not as high as in some other places

- Climate is awesome in the summer, and much less so during the winter.

There are some upsides too:

- Lots of tech companies, so switching jobs shouldn't be too difficult should you want to.

- Some would say it's one of the better cities in the world to live in and grow up. As The Economist puts it "If you had to be reborn anywhere in the world as a person with average talents and income, you would want to be a Viking." This is great for your children.[2]

- People are good at english, so getting setup should be easy. Low level of bureaucracy as well. I'd still advice that you learn Swedish though.

Many other aspects of course, the actual company you are considering is probably the most important. However, that's hard to speak to in general terms.

(I'm not really neutral, since I'm Swedish)

[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/picturegalleries/9554951/T...

[2] http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-b...

I did my masters degree in Stockholm and one thing I think is very important to know is that it is very difficult to find a job without speaking proper Swedish, so if you go to Sweden and at some point decide to change jobs, it might be difficult if you didn't learn Swedish yet. I was in a CS masters program with about 30 other international students and none of us even got a IT related side job (not even at the international companies like IBM, ...) although Kista as part of Stockholm likes to be called "the IT capital of europe ...".

Besides that, I really wouldn't worry about crime etc. Swedes definitely have a different perception to crime and danger in general compared to the rest of the world I'd say, simply because Sweden is so peaceful.

I lived in Husby, which is considered "ghetto" by Swedes and the riots this year happened pretty much in front of my door. I didn't even notice anything and was never scared to walk home at night, but every Swede I talked to reacted pretty shocked when I told them where I lived. So I really wouldn't worry about that, especially if you got along in Moscow.

Good point - "ghetto" in Scandinavia usually means that if you are drunk and in general indisposed, you'll be a bit more perceptive to your surroundings than usual if you walk home alone after midnight.

A couple of things:

You have to be absolutely certain that they will supply living and work permit for both you and your family. Immigration laws are very strict in Scandinavia, so you'd obviously want to be certain there won't be any nasty surprises with getting your wife and children here.

Living costs in Moscow and Stockholm is not that far from each other.

A full-time position as a front-end developer usually won't pay through the roof. However a good front-ender never needs to look far for a new job.

Career-wise where you'd really be able to take a leap is after a year or two as a frontend dev at this Stockholm company. By then you have working permit sorted out, a Swedish referral and maybe a little knowledge of the language.

When you have these things you can break into front-end contracting for customers in Sweden or other countries in Scandinavia (Oslo, Norway is particularly booming at the moment).

Front-end contracting is typically full-time contracts on-location for between 6 and 12 months. It typically pays 100+ USD an hour, meaning a monthly income of 16K USD or so given a standard 40 hour workweek. If you have the skills (and it sounds like you do), the contracts are pretty easy to get by using agencies who are always looking for new development talent.

It's very hard to jump directly into contracting in Sweden from Russia, particularly due to the whole work-visa problem. But once you are inside, it's a very viable opportunity.

If your wife enjoys learning languages, there is free Swedish language education (she can even apply for a "learning bonus" of around 1000 USD pr 6 weeks or so). Once you are in, there's also (almost) free health care and such.

Stockholm is a lovely city, and it's only a 2,5 hour flight from Moscow, priced typically at around 400-500 USD round-trip.

Sweden has implemented the Blue Card scheme, so work permits should now be simpler for highly skilled migrants:

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2013-08-23/sweden-joins-eu-bl...

I didn't know about the blue card, and yeah in theory it looks to make things easier. However like with many EU regulations, there's a nice idea behind but quite often a very different reality.

Individual countries can and do override EU regulations. Sometimes even illegally. Getting local laws overturned in the EU court system is an exercise in futility though.

You'll also notice a long list of requirements, some of which can be very hard to live up to. As an example Sweden doesn't recognize Russian university degrees. You'd need a year or two extra of a special "top-up" education in Sweden, depending on your field, to have a "valid" bachelor or candidates degree. To get that though, you'd need the living permit which you can't get without the degree... At least through the blue-card method. This kind of catch-22 situations grounded in bureaucracy and red tape are very common in Scandinavia. Sweden is much better than for example Denmark though, but it can still be extremely frustrating.

>Front-end contracting is typically full-time contracts on-location for between 6 and 12 months. It typically pays 100+ USD an hour, meaning a monthly income of 16K USD or so given a standard 40 hour workweek.

A lot of those 16K will go away in taxes and social costs though. I am not sure what most freelancers use for estimates but somewhere between 50-75% should probably be deducted before getting a comparable number to a salary.

Agreed. Freelancers and small business although backbone of the economy, the are not receiving much love from the Government... It's a shame.

Ouchy! That's a sting. That's where the UK seems a bit friendlier. It's possible to take pretty much 80% of your daily rate home if you plan it well..

Yeah that's true, expect around 50-55% of any pay (contracting or salary) to go to the tax man. As an employee, you get 6 weeks paid holiday, 5-8% of your salary in pension and you also get paid when you are ill. When you are contracting you get none of those things. A good rule of thumb is to deduct 20-25% of the contractor pay to reach comparable employee salary.

Still, 25% off 16K is 12K before tax. As a full-time frontender in Stockholm, you'd generally be around 5-6K before tax.

I moved from Santiago, Chile to Göteborg on December last year, it wasn't so good to me but my advice is "go ahead".

Some thoughts I'd like to share:

1. Ask people on your new job for help to find a good place to live. Rent market in Sweden is very complicated, and you'll find yourself in a queue for at least 6 months. Don't try http://www.blocket.se/ as there's a lot of scam there.

2. You'll love public transportation and internet connectivity, they really rocks!

3. Taxes are not as expensive as people used to say. Same thing with food and some other stuffs.

4. It's a great opportunity to grow up as a professional

5. I hate the weather in Sweden, too cold to me :)

6. Don't worry about the language, everybody in Sweden speak English.

7. Göteborg is a small city, so it's not dangerous at all. Different story in Stockholm, you have to be careful with that.

Finding a rental apartment in Stockholm can be a nightmare unless you're happy commuting from the distant suburbs. It can take many years (even decades) of queuing to get something within the central city ("inom tullarna"), and there is a large black market where rental contracts are sold. You might be able to find sublets, which tend to be for short times only (typically less than 2 years) and even then, competition can be tough unless you know someone looking for a tenant. If you're not in a position to buy, I'd strongly suggest you get your employer to help you find a place to live, or perhaps even rent it for you.

That said, Stockholm is a great city and I'd jump at the opportunity.

FWIW, Stockholm is a very pleasant place to live. I had a chance to live in many countries and Sweden has this very unique calm, balanced and relaxed vibe to it. It is bloody obvious compared to Moscow, but it is also evident compared to Finland for example.

Also, I know a couple of Russians who went from no Swedish to conversational level in just 3 months. It's a simple language to pick up.

All in all, just go, talk to them and have a look around. Even if you accept and end up regretting it, you still will end up with a bit of immersion living in another (comfortable and interesting) country and that never hurts ;)

Hey!

I recently moved to Stockholm from London to join a startup as a software engineer. Here's my experience so far:

Stockholm is a lovely city. Small enough to not be too hectic, but big enough to offer a broad variety of things to do. On average, I would say it's expensive – more than London at least – but I think I'm still living like a tourist instead of a local. You're going to have to hunt for the good and cheap places. On the other hand, rent is cheaper. The salaries are lower compared to London and what you've been earning as a freelancer in Moscow but I believe 1000EUR/month spending money for a single person should be enough for a good standard of living.

The startup scene is really picking up. There's a number of excellent startups and an attitude towards substance over hype. There are also quite a lot of events happening in the tech and startup scene and most of them are on meetup.com.

I'm 26, single, no kids, so my situation is different than yours. When it came to make a decision, salary was not my top priority. The company and people were pretty cool so I just went with it. I was getting a bit bored in London anyway, so I wanted a new experience.

Whether it will be a move forward or not it's completely up to you, but I think Stockholm has the potential and infrastructure to help you progress individually and career-wise.

Stockholm is lovely but the housing market is a mess. Decades of idiotic policies have halted the construction of new apartments shot the prices through the roof. Just this week I was talking to someone who was renting out his one-room apartment for more than USD 1800/month. If you want to live centrally, prepare to pay for it.

To add to this, to get a contract via the government run queue for rentals[1]:

Average time in queue in the Stockholm region: 8.5 years.

Average time in queue for central Stockholm: 15 Years.

If you don't want to wait that long, you generally have to a) sub-let, which as the example above shows, is very expensive. b) buy something, which in the central areas of Stockholm cost something like 50-80K SEK per square meter.

[1] http://www.dn.se/sthlm/lang-bostadsko-i-stockholm/

Whether 1800 USD/month for a one-bd apartment is expensive might depend on where you're coming from. That's not out of line with the going rates in many other major cities (SF, NYC, London, Paris), and might even be cheaper, if that's for a nice & centrally located apartment. But it's about 25% more expensive than Copenhagen, and 3x Berlin.

One could also live in non-Stockholm parts of Sweden, like Göteborg or Malmö, both of which have significant tech industries and lower housing costs.

Sweden just isn't made for a high income, high spending scenario. For instance most of the benefits (unemployment, sickness, parental etc.) have a cap. Taxes have also become more progressive in recent years.

Yeah, it depends on your occupation to some extent. If you're a software engineer, the rent:income ratio in NYC might be better: more expensive apartment, but you can pull down huge piles of money programming for a finance company. But if you work in a large range of regular jobs, Scandinavia is a lot more affordable. The rent:income ratio in NYC if you're working at a grocery store is terrible, while it's somewhat better in Stockholm or Copenhagen. People who work hourly-waged jobs can own apartments in Copenhagen and live middle-class lives, which is virtually impossible in SF, NYC, or most other major cities.

Compressed salaries basically, so the high end is lower and the low end is higher. I generally like that, since it means I can have friends in different occupations without huge socioeconomic gaps between us. But it means the income at the high end doesn't buy the same lifestyle. It's nonetheless enough to buy a good lifestyle, imo: as someone around the 80th percentile in Copenhagen incomes I live "somewhat better" than the median income earner, but the median is already living a pretty decent lifestyle.

I consulted with a startup in Stockholm Sweden for 2.5 months at the start of the year. It was an amazing experience, and needless to say I had an absolute blast. Made many great friends, a few of which have come to SF to visit me since. It is cold Dec-Feb, but around March starts getting nice, and Swedes come out and play.

General Rules:

- Don't talk to people on the subway. Swedes like their public transportation silent. :)

- Swedes like coffee.

- It is expensive as hell to eat out (daily), and go to bars often. I did it anyway.

- Swedes are very punctual and schedule oriented. They generally work 9-5pm, even in startups.

- Don't wait until Saturday to stock up on adult beverages, the lines at the Systembolaget can get insane.

- Learn to ice skate (or play Hockey), fun activity during the winter.

- Swedish pizza is amazing. Great thin crust.

Everything is he wrote is true, expect the bit about pizza. Swedish pizza is a culinary abomination and the people responsible for the kebab pizza should stand trial for crimes against humanity.

If I could improve one thing about Sweden it would definitely be the pizza.

Funny, I am a fan of the kebab pizza. The place on the corner of Götgatan and Ölandsgatan was my favorite.

You and me, we got beef. What the hell man, the Kebab pizza is the future.

Self promotional, but anyone looking for Swedish Startup Jobs can check out our job board. Mostly dev positions http://swedishstartupspace.com/jobs/

I live in Norway, right over the border of sweden. What we experience is that people for sweden move over here, becouse the pay is better. As a software - engineer, pay is much higher in Norway.

Is $10k per month considered a normal salary for a developer in Russia? Where I live (not Sweden but close, also a far higher GDP per capita than Russia) you'd have to be among the best in your field to expect to be paid even half that much.

Taxes are alot higher than in Russia. You'll probably end up paying 50-60% in total taxes (income + sales + various other hidden taxes on consumer goods etc.). So thats something to consider.

If you are a freelancer, as an employee it's around 30%.

Yes, but your employer pays taxes too. It's supposed to add up to the same amount (although big businesses often manage to game the tax system in one way or another).

If you have never lived outside your native culture before, then moving and immersing yourself in a different culture will be mind expanding. Even if you don't like the experience, you will learn who you are better. That knowledge will strengthen you for the rest of your life.

If you can find a rent controlled (or otherwise modestly priced) apartment in the city, otherwise I wouldn't bother. It's also not something you can easily offset by a higher salary.

Hello,

I'm not from Sweden but if you could post an approximation of the salary they offered maybe someone who lives there might better answer how you will manage. Good luck!

What the guy in charge for money said was something around $4-$5k per month before taxes which seems quite low to me.

I'm from sweden,

I would say that in Stockholm that would be a average salary for a front-end developer.

If you are currently making $7-$10k on average, why would you relocate to an foreign country and make less on a monthly base? Also seems like you are married with 2 children. Relocating your family will be more expensive than your first thought because most probably you will have to cover their visa expenses. You all need to get familiar with "aliens".

If I were you I would offer remote service to that company but would not relocate there. If they accept it's a win win. Other wise you can continue freelance.

There might be benefits other than the wage that make up for it.

I am not sure about Russian healthcare and so forth but free healthcare, education, childcare (cheap at least) and such might make up for it.

That's fair but I believe these can be accounted by lower than the difference of monthly revenues.

That sounds about average for Stockholm I believe.

The salary will obviously be lower than freelancing rates since there are less taxes and costs to consider. You will have to make a spreadsheet or something to see what would end up being most profitable.

Housing is rather expensive in Stockholm at the moment, and rentals are hard to come by unless you want to pay ~10k SEK for a small one bedroom flat.

I can confirm that that is a realistic average for a frontend guy. Keep in mind too that most larger companies will offer you a salary that is significantly below the median they offer Swedish applicants because they believe they have a leg up on you. You are in a worse negotiating position and they expect you to be used to work for a lower wage.

Can you ask them to pay you sufficiently?

Be ready to pay up for a place to stay in Stockholm, I'm native and I gotta stay in queue in order to get to rent. There is no free market for apartments - at least not for rentals. You can take your chance at the Swedish equivalent of Craigs List or get to know someone. I've given up and decided to buy.

Taxes aren't as high as people complain about, unless you're a freelancer. Small businesses get screwed royally and don't get much support compared to larger ones, but as an employee you will have it decent. You get what you pay for. Compared to say in Singapore, where you pay nada, and get nada. Some people like it.

Crime and religious extremism is in all time high. They do correlate to some degree. I lived in SG for two years, and I felt incredibly safe there (not even locking our door) coming back to Sweden, I feel a but more paranoid about having my laptop in my outside compartment of my bag.

I'm too scared to pickup my iPhone from my pocket when walking home late.

Public Transport is amazing. Trains across Sweden, is less so. I got stuck or eleven hours one winter. They seem incredibly amazed that it snows in Winter... each year.

Dining out is also pretty cool. Not as much variety as I'd like, but the level between fine dining and regular dining on the food quality is pretty similar. So if you're ok not having a waiter, you can pay less and still have decent food.

Language skills... nothing to say here. Every Swede can speak and write English. You won't have problems here.

I think your nativity makes you miss a few problems simply because they never cross your path. For example:

> Language skills... nothing to say here. Every Swede can speak and write English. You won't have problems here.

This is true insofar as that I've been studying Interaction Design in Sweden for one and a half years now (one half year to go) and I have not needed to learn Swedish. However, I've been informed that to get employed in Sweden it's quite vital that you know Swedish. There's plenty of jobs where you don't even really need to know Swedish, but they demand it anyway to give the local people a bigger chance.

To give an example: I know of other students who couldn't get a job delivering newspapers because they didn't speak Swedish because, and I quote "suppose a stranger on the street asks you for directions, how are you going to help them?" which is obviousy part of the job description of newspaper delivery boy.

Can't say how that translates for jobs like UX, although I hear similar stuff from graduates: knowing Swedish is almost necessary if you want to get employed.

I'm quite surprised about your fears at night - I live in Malmö (which has a reputation) and have never felt threatened or in danger at all.

You're partially right here. But for software engineering or general tech/science, English is sufficient. You don't need Swedish. We got a couple of English speakers at my current place of employment and there are no issues here.

But yeah, regarding other types of job, without Swedish, you'll have it tough. My partner speaks fluent Mandarin and English and has a Bachelors degree with honours. Will probably have an incredible tough time finding a job in "Communications". Ugh... Shit degree but you didn't hear that from me.

Copenhagen is a bit more English-friendly in employment from what I gather, even outside tech, so could be an option for people who want to stay in Scandinavia but have trouble finding an English-language job in Sweden. For example the entire Maersk corporation, the largest employer in Denmark, is English-only for corporate business and hiring, except a few jobs that interact with things like the Danish government, local catering, etc. My guess as to why is that Danish tends to be harder than Swedish for foreigners to learn to a level that Danes can understand, so companies don't expect them to.

Some couples straddle Copenhagen–Malmö (35 minutes by train from each other across the strait).

I don't think this is entirely true. I'm a native that have worked in Stockholm for almost 7 years (digital agencies, production companies). At every place I've been we've had at least one person that did not know swedish at all.

I am a native and agree with you, but the crimes isn't that bad as you describe. No problem to go home late at night if your in the city. If you live in the suburbs (the less clasy ones) I can imagen that the crime rate is higher.

I like Stockholm a lot and think it´s a great oppertunity to come here.

I've found Scandinavians to be extremely paranoid about crime and (from my perspective, at least) massively over-estimating it, maybe because traditionally it was nearly zero.

Coming from the U.S., cities in the Nordic countries are extremely calm and low-crime, so low that you'd need a logarithmic axis to show their crime rates alongside those of major U.S. cities (L.A., Chicago, Atlanta, NYC, etc.). I don't feel at all unsafe walking around the media-hyped "bad" areas of central-ish Copenhagen alone at 3am, or using a laptop on the train/subway at any hour. The housing projects way out in the suburbs may be different, but if you don't live there, you have little reason to ever be there.

Religious extremism in Sweden? And I thought it was one of the most secular countries in the world...

At least it's snow on your train tracks. Here in the UK, leaves, rain and yes, even sunshine can delay our trains... :-)

Yup, Sweden wins in atheism, but religious extremism is both breed and imported here. They also tend to generate more off springs than secular ones.