Why I moved to Miami
abunsen.ruhoh.com
abunsen.ruhoh.com
I got to live in one of the owner's mansions, by myself. It had nine bathrooms.
Oddly enough, you hear a lot of French there. From the Haitian taxi drivers to the Snow Birds from Quebec. You can buy good Quebecois beer at some stores.
Miami itself is pretty nice. Reminds me of Vancouver and San Diego. Not a big fan of Cuban food, but the nightlife is top-notch. Beach scene is cool if you like beaches. It's pretty hot, but everything has crazy good A/C. Can fly to the Bahamas/Bermuda/St. Barth's whenever you want. Cheap flights up the East Coast too.
It helps to have a car, though they have a seemingly underused elevated public train. It's a good place to bike, as there are essentially no hills.
Regarding taxes, I was paying essentially the same income tax + payroll tax in Florida as I do in British Columbia (though BC has pretty low taxes). Plus free healthcare in Canada. Gas, booze, smokes are basically half the price in Florida as Canada though.
On the bad side...
Peeps are a little shallow, though there is an okay arts community. Not exactly an intellectual climate. I'm sure it can be found, but I didn't.
Palm Beach is a weird fucking place. Richest zip code in America (or was at the time I was there). West Palm Beach was the per-capita murder capital of America. Cops on the bridges to keep the homies out. Lots of boarded-up shops in West Palm during the height of the boom in 2008. Didn't make sense.
There were three murders (of rich white people) that I heard of during the year I was there. The locals are poorly educated, but there are lots of bright imports from around America that make it interesting.
So if you like your artsy, intellectual coffee-shop community of San Fran or Seattle, Miami might not be for you. But if you like clubbing at nights and laid-back days, it's pretty good.
And I gonna be the first one to say it I think... I remember during PyCodeconf 2 years ago many of the attendees from SF were really impressed by the amount of women here (beautiful ones) that even the most introverted (I am one of those) can find someone here. For girls too, also, since people are really obsessed with fitness here. That's pretty shallow but hey we didn't come out with Tinder ;-) you guys did.
The fun time we have at nightclubs (now there are many hipster bars and venues) is really unmatchable, I went out 3 times this week (it's just friday night) and the places were still going hard at 5am, not only that, there are places that close very late and open early (Will Call, from 12pm to 7am) or open at 3am (Mekka and Space). I might sound like a party guy but I'm not, this is very typical of Miami.
I'm not gonna tell you, you can find smarter people here, since that would be a lie, but artsy people? Probably, and very good looking.
About the affordability, I live in front of Bayfront Park (the biggest park in Downtown, walking distance from AAA) the apartment is beautiful, and the building is like living in a hotel, pool (with a bar and full staff), gym, spa, all that for only $1650 (and my neighbors pay a lot less, I'm just a bad negotiator), check it out: http://www.vizcayne.com/
West you will find the courthouse and the feared overtown -- which as I mentioned elsewhere -- isn't the safest of areas.
Brickell is a short (15minutes or less) walk. There you will find better restaurants and droves of young urban business professionals who probably work in some form of consumer banking.
Wynwood is close, but you can't walk there because you'd have to go through Overtown which is, again, a really scary place to be even during daylight hours. It's full of artists , trustafarians, and some tech people. But mostly hipsters.
To get to any beach you will need a car.
Downtown is not a ghost-town during the weekend... Are you serious? Basslights is going on right now in front of my building you can hear Bassnectar soundchecking haha http://www.bassnectar.net/wp-content/uploads/BASSLIGHTS2013-... And last monday we had Sigur Ros. It's all happening in the park (and other things like free yoga classes or other things I'm not into).
Or you could take the metro mover which is free (and, sadly, underused) that takes you to Brickell or north Downtown.
About Wynwood, you can avoid Overtown, using N Miami Ave or US1. My friend (who wrote this article) bikes from Midtown to Brickell a couple of times a week during the day and night.
FWIW, I'm happy in Miami and glad I'm here. I just wanted to air some of the warts I wish I knew about before coming.
SF Bay Area vs South Florida
Food: I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Cuban food is awesome and it's the best South FL has to offer. Everything else is on the meh side. Almost every other metro is better with SF, LA, and NY being a lot better.
Weather: unless it's the late fall or early winter, it's really hot and humid, even at night. Yes parts of the Bay Area get hot, but it's not paired with humidity. Heavy humidity makes breathing feel heavier, as well as making you sweat a lot from just walking for 10 minutes outside. I still remember seeing some steam leaving our heads after some pickup basketball games. To make things worse, in some seasons mosquitos will be carrying some awful diseases like encephalitis so you'll need to wear long sleeves at night. In south Fl, prepare to have electric bills over 200-300 or even more depending on the size of your house. Not using air conditioning will make you miserable. Really the only place enjoyable outside is on the water.
Bay Area weather on the other hand is like having air conditioning outside. My relatives from FL always marvel at it whenever they visit.On the bright side you have more time to prepare for a hurricane than you do for an earthquake.
Outdoor Leisure: The ocean is where South FL and Miami really shine. Unlike the cold murky waters of the Bay Area, in South FL the ocean waters are crystal clear. Any watersport like surfing or scuba diving is way better. (On that note watch out for sharks. Due to damage to the environment, shark attacks in south fl has risen dramatically over the years with surfers being injured the most) However, due to erosion most of South FL's beaches are really just crushed rock and concrete which sucks. For real sand, you need access to either a private beach, an unpopular park to the north, or an island park reachable only by boat. Fishing in the ocean is great.
Everything else outdoorsy in South FL really sucks due to the humidity. Biking, camping, and hiking are just not as enjoyable as the Bay Area or even New York. There's no Tahoe nearby either. Though Disney World is way better than Disney Land. It also doesn't help that insects and spiders are a really big problem in south FL. Even indoors it's much worse than any other place in the US that I'm aware of (imagine an ant infestation within 5-10 minutes of dropping a few crumbs of food... Fl is also the spider capital of the world.)
Intellectual Community: South FL and Miami have a virtually non-existent one, as opposed to the Bay Area or NY. If you want that in the Southern US, you'll have to go to either Austin or the Atlanta metro instead. Conversation just isn't as good here compared to other major metros.
Nightlife: Miami beats the Bay Area hands down in this department in both quantity and quality. Though it gets old when you're not single.
General Stuff to do: I've always felt that there's a lot more going on in the Bay Area, Ny, and LA. Conversely there's not as much to do in south fl or Miami which is one reason people start families at a much younger age there.
Crime: Even though the stats are similar I always felt that crime is Miami is worse for one reason: really horrible crime can happen almost anywhere and at anytime (or at least that was my impression).
Cost of Living: South FL and Miami are significantly cheaper than the Bay Area even without factoring in the lack of state income tax. Of course you have also have to factor in the major business and job opportunities as well. Even though the startup scene is much better now, I still feel the biggest opportunities in South FL are real estate, food, and health / medical. As for the cost of real estate, you have to factor in the "snow birds" from the north east buying seasonal homes, so it's not as cheap as it should be though still a lot cheaper than the Bay Area
Misc: Although not required, it's wise to be fluent in Spanish in Miami. You also need a car for Miami and south FL. It's too inconvenient otherwise.
Definitely true on the Spanish. More than twice as many people speak Spanish at home than English. (though a lot of the Spanish speakers are bilingual, it's the dominant language in the county)
http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/...
If you don't value your life, sure. Miami traffic is crazy. If you don't get hit by the Fast & Furious wannabe, you'll get hit by an old lady who didn't stop at the light.
And in case you are wondering what this has to do with Miami, I agree with the OP, just stay home and build your business (startup or otherwise) right there. You still have a ticket in the startup lottery if that is the way you want to go, but just like in SV itself, most of those startups don't last very long.
However, unlike SV, if you stay where you are then you have a better chance of building a normal business that grows incrementally by serving profitable customers, reinvesting profits, and taking a longer term view.
Readers of HN should be very aware that there are startups all over the place, and not just in American cities but in most countries of the world. Silicon Valley just isn't as special as it once was because computers and tech and Internet connectivity is now virtually everywhere that there are cities.
Not having ever founded a company I could be extremely wrong here but my take is that SF could be detrimental to certain startups.. If you have $x saved up to support you while you start a company it's going to last you much longer in basically any other city in the country other than perhaps Manhattan. At that point you basically have to decide which is going to be more of a factor in your success, extra time with which to build your product or physical proximity to an entrepreneurial community? Of course there's no one right answer, but I suspect that for many web-based startups the extra time and savings would be more important than the surrounding environment.
I think partly it's that people are inspired by the category of businesses that seem like: given $30k and two years in a garage, I could do that! This requires a particular kind of company, and lots of success stories just don't seem like the kind of thing you could do in a garage, so they aren't part of this particular corner of the Valley mythos. For example, one of the top tech IPOs of 2013 is CDW, a Chicago-based B2B firm that's been slowly growing since 1984 by building partnerships and logistics infrastructure, and is now IPO'ing 29 years later. Totally different kind of company.
I think the location actually matters a bit less. People probably do pay more attention to SF-based companies just because that's where a lot of the startup-sector media is, but companies from elsewhere that fit the model I described also get press, like 37signals (Chicago) or SoundCloud (Berlin). A number of the more prominent HN posters with startups are also from outside the Valley, like tptacek (Chicago) and cperciva (Vancouver).
Anyway, I live in an area that reaches 43c in the summer and -6c in the winter. When I first moved here it definitely threw me off, but I got acclimated to it quickly.
Neither compare to the peninsula though. It's still mid-20s in Palo Alto during the day right now whereas its mid-teens in Vancouver.
For whatever reason the sun in Canada really seems to burn(at least in Toronto area) and it can get really humid in the summers. But in the winter you can always just bundle up and feel comfortable.
Mother nature is apparently great at causing Stockholm syndrome. You're lucky to have gotten out unscathed. :)
That said, I think there is a mindset to enjoying the heat as well. You should probably not expect to go hiking through the woods in the summer in Florida. It's just not pleasant to be in such places in such humidity with such insects. If you live in Florida, your weekends should be spent at the beach (and please do not call it the shore, it's like calling it soda vs. pop). Sand will get into everywhere and everything, so learning how to deal with sand is a major part of enjoying Florida.
I grew up on the Gold Coast. I love sand. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Coast_(Florida)Back north, outside of 2 months of summer you keep having to adjust heating or put on/take off layers of clothing as the time of day progresses, and the slightest shiver gives me a "what is this, I shouldn't have to live this way, I give up, brain shut-down initiated" wave of misery :D hence, tropics suit me best and I do manage to get stuff done here. .
Not quite so far south, great weather, big city amenities, even lower cost of living, fiber to the home...
Miami is a great place to live if your priorities are partying. There are excellent night clubs and beautiful men and women everywhere.
The Bay Area holds an advantage over almost every point the OP made.
Rent is ~$2k for a 2 bedroom 2 bath if you want to live in a nice area in Coral Gables that isn't full of roaches, or was built in the 1940s and has dwarf-sized rooms. Rent is about the same in the peninsula. If you want to purchase it's a whole different story however. What costs ~$1m here is ~$300k there and probably in a lot better shape.
Food is a push. I must say the Bay Area probably offers a larger variety of food. Miami is mostly all Caribbean and Central/South American food which is excellent but not as varied as the Indian, Mediterranean, Afghan, Thai you see out here.
The neighborhoods are even more awesome here in the Bay Area. I say this because the strangers I meet on the street are a lot nicer than the strangers in Miami. There's a unique, wonderful, and rich history to the cities and towns in the Bay Area and there are a lot of neat places to explore like the Open Space preserves out West or the forrest in Santa Cruz. The only mountains in Florida are the smelly trash ones.
The Developer ecosystem pales in comparison. It's not even close and it won't be for a while. There are very little tech companies out there and no real major players. While it's very nice to see it blooming the reality is that it's still in its infancy and if you're moving out there just for the tech you're doing it wrong.
The weather. It's just terrible. It's like a sauna all the time. It feels like you're breathing in liquid water sometimes and it's difficult to make it from your house to your car (which will be a scorching inferno) without sweating.
The only great things Miami has that I truly miss is the water; it is beautiful and warm.
Weather is such a subjective thing :) to each their own.
Miami has quite a shallow population. I've also found as time goes on that as I develop new interests, there is poor community around most of them--the little things like rock climbing or playing ping pong. It's even extremely difficult to find a coffee shop to work out of when I visit family.
Check out Panther Coffee in Wynwood or Miami Beach: http://www.panthercoffee.com/
Next time you're in Miami give me a shout: @bunsen
For that extra McDonald's employee's salary I'm paying in taxes I'm getting back quality hiking, camping, rock climbing, mountain biking, road biking, surfing, and snowboarding as well as gorgeous sights of mountains, caves, waterholes, forrest, and rivers.
It's a nature lover's paradise out here in California.
One of the things I like about Silicon Valley is that people are generally focused on creating value rather than making money. (The difference being that I can make money in ways that transfer money from your pocket to mine, without a net increase in value.) But my impression of Florida is that there's a different orientation there.
For example, South Florida is currently the identity theft capital of the US. [1] At least a few years back, a few Florida counties had more spammers than any other country. [2] It seems like the dubious business culture goes back to the scam-heavy Florida land boom in the 1920s. [3] That had an echo in Florida swampland scams in the 60s and 70s. [4] And Miami was one of the worst cities in the recent US property bubble. [5]
Do you notice that difference in business orientation and business ethics?
[1] http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-02-26/business/fl-iden...
[2] http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2005-05-08/news/0505070596_...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_land_boom_of_the_1920s
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swampland_in_Florida
[5] http://us.spindices.com/indices/real-estate/sp-case-shiller-...
Being the (unofficial) world headquarters of a large industry that does more good than harm probably contributes greatly to making the Bay Area a good place for people like you and I to live (although it is good to remember that being the world headquarters of another such industry did not protect Detroit from becoming what I consider a very bad place to live).
P.S. your history should probably mention the time in the 1970s when South Florida was the cocaine-smuggling capital of the US.
Isn't it still the cocaine-smuggling capital of the US? California and Texas picked up a lot of the marijuana routes when the center of gravity shifted from Colombian to Mexican cartels. But boat traffic from Haiti and other parts of the area is a huge cocaine route.
Anecdotally speaking: back when I worked in the entertainment business, I'd fly out to Miami for a lot of annual conferences. Maybe it's just the nature of that crowd, but man, they basically dusted the streets in coke. I could almost swear I got some as part of my check-in basket at the Fontainebleau.
I thought cocaine was everywhere in LA -- but in Miami I'm pretty sure you can buy it over the counter at a McDonald's, and no one would bat an eyelash.
As a Michigander who has lived in SF a dozen years, the point about Detroit is especially interesting. Detroit lost out because they got complacent and exploitative. It allowed foreign competitors to come along and kick their asses in ways they couldn't even understand. (If you like This American Life, their episode NUMMI gives a very useful take on the cultural issue.)
I don't think we'll lose it that way, just because we self-define in ways that honor competition and user experience. But it's certainly possible. Google keeps growing, and Google Plus is a fine example of a dominant player getting fat and sassy and shifting toward exploitative behavior.
A lot of the shadier companies I've been aware of have their offices, or at least mailing addresses, in Boca Raton. Others have agreed with me on this point. Especially in the internet advertising market you have all kinds of strange players.
I hear a lot of complaints about the ultra rich in NYC. If you have a $50 million apartment in Manhattan, when your walking down the street it doesn't matter. You enter a building, even if its an expensive one, who knows what your living in. If your being driven around in a Maybach no one cares. In South Florida, its more like LA, lots of wealth flaunting.
Before the real estate crash, these high end luxury condos were brand new and not cheap (well, still cheap compared to SF.) The boom basically created the infrastructure, subsidized by a bunch of greedy people, ironically. The reason some of these buildings still are cheap is because banks won't lend for them. (that is changing)
His popularity is in the signal digits now too, of course. Luckily our governor really has little power. All the power rest in the legislature.
* Miami is a great place to live if you prioritize partying. If you don't -- or are past that stage in your life -- you are going to find fewer people with things in common than in any other city I've lived.
* If we are generalizing...people are ruder and quicker to screw you over if the opportunity presents itself. And before you say it, no, it's not just because it's a big city. It's different here. It's worse here.
* South Florida drivers are statistically the worst in the country. Luckily I don't have to commute.
* Food is a push, I agree. I really miss the Asian-fare back home. Thankfully, I've found one really awesome Thai place to keep me sane.
* I don't participate in the tech market, as I work remotely for a CA based company.
* The neighborhoods downtown are not awesome. I live across the street [0] from OP and would not feel comfortable walking even a block east with my wife at night. Miami has
* The weather is really subjective. At first, I struggled with the humidity and heat. But now I love it. That and the water are probably the things I love most about Miami.
[0] : http://www.flickr.com/photos/bdesimone/8761046729/
If you have any questions... ask away.
And I HATE it down here, Sure, the weather is nice (most of the time). And when the beaches aren't sinking (Miami Beach is flooding all the time now) they'll fun. But they get old fast.
Miami is a party town. Period. If you're into it then you're gold.
Traffic is a nightmare. It takes 90 mins to get from the center of Miami to Fort Lauderdale (about 30 miles) in the middle of the week day.
The food.. Fort Lauderdale does have a bit more variety, bit it's basically Cuban, Haitian, and other Latin cuisine. Lucky for me I love it. But I tell ya,. I have yet found a decent Chinese restaurant. I have found decent Thai - and that search took me through 15 different restaurants and over a year.
There is some great American cuisine here. And of course, we have every single fast-food place you know off on EVERY corner.
South Florida is car culture. I mean even in Whole Foods (the closest we can get to decent food shopping) - it's all "nameste" inside but folk will cut your heart out in the parking lot. I've seen fights break out in the Whole Food parking lot. Usually between two perfectly groomed women; their babies sitting in harness hanging off their shoulders.
There a HUGE amount of stress living in Florida. Between the driving, the walled up homes, beaches sinking, the right wing government not giving a shit - which reminds me - if you have kids you best plan on private school. There are REALLY good ones down here (depending on location). Add the school cost into your budget. I'd never send my kid to public school - the state has ripped public schools to shreds.
Oh and one other thing - this is a Stand Your Ground State. So carry a gun. Many do. Most are concealed.
Now about the tech. It's here. It's small. It really depends on which tech. Microsoft is everywhere. Easy to find Meetups and Technets. Also Ruby is well represented here with 3 groups (Boca, Broward (Lauderdale) and Miami) - I know of one small Python group that barely meets - the rest are hit and miss.
Outside of medical, real estate, tourism, and banking there just isn't much else going on. Sure there are a few start-ups. And people are trying. But they are few and far between. And I'm in Telcom (by the way).
Now all this sour news there are some pluses - the Arts. The formal arts (Opera, Theater, Symphonies - are small. But they are jugging along). But We do have a thriving arts festival (Art Basel - https://www.artbasel.com/) which has really transformed the arts scene in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and the Palm Beaches.
Also Orchids - West Beach is one of the centers for orchid trade in the world (bet you didn't know that). Orchid people are CRAYZ. I love them myself - cause they bring a much need "oddness" to South Florida.
Also, while the cost of living is way down here, so is the income you will get from working a local job. I talked with a few people and there is scant a developer pulling in over 90k here. Compare that to SF where 100k salaries are the norm and it all evens out.
With that said, I like MB/Miami. The tech scene is in its infancy though. I don't believe there is any real institutional venture funds here. Basically, raising a 'A' round is going to be very difficult. You might be able to pull it off with latin american based VC but it will be a struggle.
I will say that the people I have met so far out here have been very nice and welcoming and there is a very good vibe. I am looking forward to building things out here.
I was a game beta tester at that IBM site in 96, later called T-REX. $17/hr for a 16yo was way better than anything McDonalds would pay.
I paid $1,600/month a few winters ago for basically a wooden shack with tin roof and high speed internet (across the street from V-land).
Nice work/life balance, code, surf, code, surf, woohooo ;-)
Pros:
No state income tax. (A HUGE advantage)
Lots of business.
Some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.
Stunning winter weather.
Gorgeous beaches/parks/neighborhoods.
International culture.
Walkable neighborhoods near downtown.
Some of the best restaurants I've ever been to.
Emerging startup scene.
Vibrant arts/design/culture scene.
Year round biking/jogging/swimming/etc.
Lots of money (including international).
Can fly non-stop anywhere.
Decent mass transit.
Lots of wonderful highrise communities in town.
Horrendous traffic.
The worst drivers I've ever seen.
Everything generally overpriced.
Some of the rudest people you'll ever meet.
Generally horrible service.
Lots of blight.
Hot summers (but oddly, no worse than most of the northeast).
Lots of competition for living/shopping/going out/etc.
Too much crime/not enough enforcement.
Party scene is played out (Too loud, not as pretty as you think you are)When I moved here I bought a brand new camaro... on the third day I got a big dent on the passenger's door. A month later there were three already, even with all my attempts to park as safe as possible from other cars.
Email me (email in profile) and we'll figure something out.
(Thanks for the great post.)
Once you get away from the urban nightmares, Florida isn't so bad though. Admittedly not everyone likes the climate, but I run a few miles every morning, even in the summer, and getting on a boat helps to cool off. No malls or dance clubs, and almost no big-box stores or fast food. But we do have Amazon Prime and a fishing pole.
Unless you REALLY love the Gators.
Gainesville on the other hand seemed to be mostly a bunch of drunken undergraduates. Cool if that's your scene, but outside of Grooveshark there didn't seem to be much of a tech community, and very little in the way of the fine arts.
Suburban Miami wasn't bad at least... I certainly don't remember any gunshots growing up there. Now if you lived near Overtown, West Perrine, Goulds, etc. then yeah, you had to deal with gunshots. Same with every major city though.
Mind if I ask why you still own the place?
I'll take a hovel in SF over a mansion in Miami any day.
Besides, the defense of Miami in this article stinks of all that is wrong with America - that it's filled with great places to consume. Don't get me wrong, I love my fancy hipster bars, restaurants, and shops - but those aren't what makes SF the best city for me.
The population of Miami is around 410,000. When someone tries to "comparing the people of X", where X is a population of 410,000, I think the bigger insight is to be gleaned from the writer's preconceptions than their conclusions.
While it may not be politically correct to say that one city is "dumber, less creative, and 'worse at life'," it seems to be politically fine to say San Francisco is filled with creative, smart, "good at life" people. Of course, those statements are logically equivalent, so it's really just politics you are arguing.
Another true statement is that San Francisco is a magnet for homeless drug addicts. It turns out there are a lot of people in both places and you can find really good and really bad parts of each.
Snark aside, 26% of Miami has Bachelor's degrees. San Francisco county is 51%. Marin, 54%. San Mateo county, 46%.
Source: US Census, by way of http://chronicle.com/article/Attainment-Interactive/125995/
Something to consider is whether or not you've got kids. Right now my family lives in an affordable neighborhood with a tolerant culture and excellent public schools that my two kids attend. In Texas, it seemed more like getting a good secular education for your kids was something that you had to pay a lot for, one way or the other -- either living in a super affluent neighborhood or finding private schools. Financially, I think that I may actually come out ahead living in one of the so-called "education states."
Granted, my cultural biases show themselves in this post.
Also, what are the "education states" and why?
Though unless you're planning on sending your kids to one of these schools I don't think this really tells you much of anything.
Of course compared to the rest of the state...
I have to disagree with this. I graduated from a regular public school in Texas and there was nothing sectarian about the education and it was far better than the public high school I attended in the SF Bay Area (they could actually afford things like copy paper, something my CA high school stopped buying due to budget cuts. They also dropped all advanced courses, this in a neighborhood with houses reaching $1 million).
I lived in an affluent neighborhood in Texas, yes, but the bar to afford such a neighborhood isn't very high here. ~$250k homes in that area for some of the top-ranked high schools in the nation.
That said, even with those little unpleasantnesses, I did get an excellent education.
You wouldn't believe the lengths some people go to to spite believers.
"Not eating is a style of cuisine, just like Ethiopian or Italian, because those darn anorexics are just so vehement about it."
If you live in an urban inner-city neighborhood, though, then yes, you have to pay an extraordinary amount to get a good education for your kids through private school. On the plus side, Houston has some incredibly strong private high schools (e.g., St. John's School) if you can afford the $20-25k/year tuition on top of the super expensive real estate and the 3% property taxes.
The article title “Why I moved to Miami & you should too” is very different from the HN submission “Before moving your startup to NYC or SFO”.
I don’t always agree with HN moderators’ title changes, but in this case, I can see why the title would be reversed (it hasn’t been yet, as of me writing this.)
For instance in Florida you pay ~2% property tax on your assessed value and in california you pay ~1% on your purchased value. If you bought property at 500k and its appreciated to 1 million in CA you pay 5k in FL you pay 20k.
Also you have to live in CA. And in SF. Double whammy.
I don't even get a decent startup scene for that.
As a simple example:
If you make 1 million a year and live in a 2 million dollar house.
Property tax in Cali : 20k Income tax in Cali : ~65k
Property tax in FL : 40k Income tax in FL: Zero
So in this example, you are 100% better off being in florida.
Only 65k taxes on 1 million in income? In California? I'll pay you to do my taxes.
So on 1m you will pay ~350k to the fed gov- That leaves you with 650k 'net' remaining. CA taxes you on this amount. Hence the 65k for Cali.
This place has a nice downtown, a pretty diverse population (a lot of medical research and university action). The food's pretty good and somewhat varied (no Shalimar Pakistani unfortunately, I miss my Saag Gosht).
I miss the bay area but can now get back at least every two months or so to see old friends. If you can swing it, give it a try.
Making a Silicon Valley salary remotely in Winston-Salem would let you live like a king.
Besides, the Carolina skies are just breathtaking, and not available at any price. I recently visited Winston with my California native girlfriend, and we were both charmed by the beauty and open space of Carolina.
But on my first visit to the San Jose area in six months I was struck by how beautiful the place I left really is, too. In NC the trees are a bit suffocating. I like seeing the hills around the bay. And the NC trees are all the exact same shade of green during the summer. The hike I took at Purissima along Skyline Blvd was beautiful. And even the crowded housing everywhere has its charm.
We made our choice and moved on to NC, but I'm real glad to be working for a bay area company again.
Downtown Raleigh has art festivals, music festivals (Hopscotch, Wide Open Bluegrass), Red Hat amphitheater, and Duke Energy Center for the Performing Arts (including Meymandi Concert Hall, Fletcher Opera Theater, Kennedy Theater, Memorial Auditorium), etc. There are a lot of great restaurants within walking distance of some nice/fun bars. You don't even have to walk or ride; they have a Trolley you can ride for free (or rent!), a Trolley Pub (bike bar), rickshaws, etc. There are clubs (various kinds and each age groups), but that's not as much my scene anymore. They are to a saturation point with microbrewing companies in the area, they have so many: http://www.ncbeer.org/brewery-map/ And that's not all of Raleigh, e.g. North Hills has been having great free outdoor concerts with a few great bars (and a great grocery store if you want to be cheap) right next to it, which has been our fav recently. It is basically everything you love about a "small town" (great people, community, lower cost of living) in a well-educated and resourced area (NCSU, UNC-CH, Duke Univ. and too many tech companies to mention) with plenty of great places to eat and things to do.
But, Durham has DPAC, lots of great restaurants, a good startup scene, including areas devoted to startups like the Underground in the American Tobacco District next to DPAC and the Durham Bulls ballpark (where they do concerts, too.), etc.
And for the best hole-in-the-wall places to eat, you just have to ask around enough, like anywhere else. It might be a hot pot Chinese place in some random Morrisville strip mall, etc.
If you don't mind cars, the quality of live if pretty great, however it kills me that it is just far enough from the mountains and the beaches for either to be convenient. Freshwater lakes aren't too far, but too much of those nearby are in the watershed supplying water to the area so recreational usage is highly restricted.
And besides all the actual tech companies, there are great tech opportunities in banking if you go to Charlotte, in biotech (all the big pharmas and a lot of the smaller/startups are in and around RTP), and pure science. Just like the Bay Area has Stanford & Berkeley, we have Duke, UNC, and NCSU -- similarly high quality educations, just with a different focus.
In any case, I'm not trying to convince anyone you're wrong, but there are multiple angles to every story and RTP is definitely a good option for a lot of people. Two of my best friends in my neighborhood are relos from California (one from the LA area and one who worked for Heroku in SF), actually.
http://www.fark.com/topic/florida
"Have you ever been to Florida? It's basically a criminal population. It's America's Australia." - Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock
Collecting the weird stories has become an internet meme.
That being said the everglades national park is one of the most beautiful places I've been. (Just don't go during mosquito season)....
edit: I can't believe I was the second reference to fark on this thread....
>Disgruntled ex-boyfriend left thousands of voicemails on his ex-girlfriend's phone, adds sound effects like gunshots in the background for that added criminal charge[1]
[1]Sun Sentintal
Chances are you are meeting the adult version of the cynical kids I grew up with. Some of them tried to move back to NYC, Boston, NJ and found the neighbourhood had changed and no one remembered them or cared.
Sadly, I left Utah to follow my wife's (military) career to Tacoma, WA. When she retires in 9 years, you can bet that we'll head back.
Still, 35% nominally LDS is very low for Utah. Summit County is the one place in Utah that leans blue in most elections, and is a common settling place for wealthy persons who like skiing, hence the diminishing LDS population.
I agree there are many geographically desirable locations in WA and OR. However, like the other posters, I'm not what it has to do with anything...
We're doing it in Myrtle Beach, SC: WhyNotTheBeach.com based off the low cost of living, high quality of life, big city amenities, fiber to the home, etc.
some reasons to to like nyc: it's no Tokyo, but it's actually pretty big. each neighborhood has its own vibe, and there are dozens of those in manhattan alone. The food is simply unbeatable. 2000 restaurants at any given time with new ones opening up every week. I'm having a hard time visiting all the good restaurants in my neighborhood alone. it's not too big where there is still a neighborhood feel (i'm super friendly with small business owners and personnel in local shops, my neighbors). in my experience [majority of] people have been very nice and open. i keep meeting people from all over the world every weekend. i have friends that are starting and running businesses that give me energy to go on. shit ton of good jobs. models. rich history on every block.. great for photography hobby, looks awesome in winter with all the snow.. looks awesome in the fall with all the leaves.. looks awesome in the spring with blooming spring blossoms.. easy to meet intellectual people.. models. lots of healthy living options, some nyc areas have turned into shopping malls, but the city still has an edge. to name a few.. i love going to miami to relax and party, but can't imagine actually living there. possibly when i'm ready to "slow down" whatever that means?
Again, I'm sorry for offending you!
I agree with you, it's absurd for most of these people to live in SF.
Now rain on the other hand....
Seattle Cascade snow is wet and icky; it's not the dry soft powder they get in Utah or other places in the Rockies. There are way better places for snow than Seattle.
Also because it snows more you are less likely to have tracked out conditions any day of the week.
If you're ever up here check out Crystal or baker.
Just keep telling your California friends it sucks up here in the Woods and I'll keep telling mine about how bad the Mormons are in utah and we'll both be safe.
I would say anything to keep the Californians out; its part of our culture.
Of course, the people still making your old salary surely feel terrible that your now-doubled salary is filling you with discussed. If you ask nicely, I bet they'll trade paychecks with you so you feel better.
But if you make 50K your gonna see 38K in your pocket. 12K in taxes is a fair amount as I'm all for taxes for roads and services I use.
Though taking half of what you make each year in the various taxes is insane and again for me makes me think why work harder and smarter. The majority of my rewards will be taken from me!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/19/h...
Regardless, you seem to be upset that we have a progressive tax system, where the rich proportionally pay more. That seems fine to me. Paying for "what you use" is a terrible standard. The whole thing has to get paid for.
Though what percentage is a fair share? I was fine with 25 percent tax, but damn after working hard and smart your reward is a little more money in your pocket and a lot more in Uncle Sam's pocket....
I'm effectively paying EU tax rates without any of the benefits (child care, universal healthcare, etc).
FL is not that cheap anymore. Car insurance and home insurance are a fortune, some of the highest in the country. You also have to drive everywhere. Traffic in Miami is downright brutal both weekday and weekend. Plus, you have a lot of immigrants that do not know how to drive. If you like to ride motorcycles, dont.
The work ethic in Florida is probably one of the worst in the country. In NY and Cali it would take about 10-15 interviews to find a relatively qualified candidate. In FL it is roughly 1:25-30 candidates. Mostly because of DUI felonies or drug test failures.
Miami is the gateway to South America and other 3rd world countries so if you do not like Spanish culture don't bother. As a white person, you are a minority in South FL. Crime in Miami is some of the highest in the country and having a CCW permit is the norm, not the exception. FL is still very much the wild wild west.
South FL has a great scene for artists, graphic designers and retailers but still have a very hard time attracting exceptional programmers due to the hot weather and low salaries. If you have children do not bother with the public schools, you will have to go private.
FL is a great place for a startup due to the lack of taxes and cheap labor available. However, if you are not a principal of the company go elsewhere.
Also, if you are dealing with a person or company and do not put anything in writing...RUN. In NY and CA people are very upfront and comfortable with contracts. Not so in FL. If you say the word contract they look at you like you offended them. FL has the Homestead Act and because of that you get a lot of the felons and riff raff who move to FL to start again and pump the money into their homes. Very shady environment.
Talent sticks with other talent and success leaves footprints.
There are a lot of other great places to work, live and build a business.
I find the tech scene pretty miserable here but then again I've worked from home for almost 10 years and I'm terrible at networking events. So it could just be my self-imposed social prison! I live further south (Pinecrest), a little further away from our "tech hubs" in downtown and midtown.
If you're in Miami and are looking for any events, Startup Digest does a good job of showing you what's happening each week: https://www.startupdigest.com/digests/miami
I'd love to meet some HN minded brethren though.. Maybe we should try and do an HN Meetup, anyone else interested?
Shoot me an email.
A lot of assholes here also, get used to people staring at you in your car or on the street. The women are the hottest I've seen in any state. Most people here are so into fitness that its hard not to want to look good and take care of yourself.
1. I went to not one, but two blue ribbon schools growing up, in a city where the income per capita is $25k/yr. It wasn't in Miami but it was in South Florida.
2. I volunteer regularly, donate regularly & I'm vegetarian. Hardly the life of a self-gratifying heathen.
3. Our interns at 1Sale.com have come in from Dartmouth & we've received applications from kids that are at Stanford. There are MIT grads at startups down here too (don't want to put anyones name out who doesn't want).
If I was seeking self-gratification I'd be out every night drinking & partying, not in my office working on features for customers or optimizing processes for the company. I really didn't appreciate the personal jab, MattsterToo.
Regarding Florida... a vast, beautiful and diverse region with massive immigration that has propelled it to #4 in population (and closing in on #3 New York). I fell in love with the place when my family visited cousins in Ft. Lauderdale.
Interesting to read about Silicon Valley and SF versus New York versus Miami and other urban centers. I wonder whether it's still advantageous in this day and age to spend the extra bucks and be in a hotspot of entrepreneurial activity. The online networking forums dwarf the old computer clubs and networking gatherings of yore. Granted, there's still nothing like face to face for getting "chemistry" about someone, but is it worth spending an extra $200,000 for a house and an extra $25,000 a year in taxes? (actually these numbers are probably understated, depending on where you are)
Your blog describes the lifestyle preferences of a young, single person. Having a family changes everything and suddenly schools and stability of neighborhoods become much more important than diversity of cuisine (and once you have a kid, your restaurant fund is diverted to diapers anyway). From that perspective, I would think that southern Florida wins hands down over, say, San Francisco or Manhattan which are prohibitively expensive for raising families. I mean, people do it, but damn. It's not like when my mother was growing up in Brooklyn in the 1930s and 40s and millions of families lived in the City, and millions of families bought modest homes all up and down the California coast. And Miami was a quiet city you went for two weeks in the wintertime.
<meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width; initial-scale=1.0; maximum-scale=1.0;">Pros:
- Florida was the hit the hardest by the housing collapse, so it's like houses are having a 50% off sale.
- Lots to do. Many cities here like Orlando and Miami were built on tourism, so there's a lot of interesting things to do compared with cities built for business as usual.
- Decent beaches and nice weather in season.
Cons:
- The state government seems extremely backwards/frustrating. Even getting your driver's license switched over requires ~7 documents. Florida representatives frequently say stupid things, so you get to see comedians like Jon Stewart tear them apart on a regular basis.
- The weather. You have to put up with hurricanes and regular storms. My sinuses bug me a lot more here.
- Social life. If you're more progressive/liberal, you'll have to get used to being the odd-man-out. You can also feel left out if you don't speak Spanish in many places here.
P.S. If anyone needs an intern, I make a great cuban coffee! jacobmizraji@gmail.com
We moved to CA for our family. We lived in the midwest, and there just wasn't much to do. There are endless things to do out here. I imagine Miami is about the same in that regard.
One thing I think he left out is the political standings. I came from a blood red state. My way of thinking is more in line with a blue state. It is so much nicer to be around people who think similar to you.
As for the taxes, yeah that's a pretty tasty difference. But I got to have my skiing & mountains :)
Lies :P I've lived in Miami. March to November, it's super-hot and super-humid. And it has hurricanes.
Miami in May: http://instagram.com/p/ZFur0VQWkM/
June: http://instagram.com/p/aBqCq_QWhp/
Yes it's hot (& most definitely humid) but bad weather is not really that common (at least for me in the last 2 years) & I think the sky & sunsets are flippin' beautiful!
and oh god that last picture makes me cringe and wrap myself in my 30 degree blanket.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jul/29/climate-n...
Down in LA someone is trying to build a skyscraper on an active fault line: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-hollywood-fault-mill...
A good portion of Manhattan will be under water if sea levels rise as well.
Then we all know what happened to New Orleans.
People seem to enjoy evacuating after the fact, not before.
Miami, on the other hand, is mostly flat and is sitting on a porous foundation, in addition to being right next to the everglades. There was a really interesting article recently on it:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-the-city-of-mi...
Ironically - that picture from the RS article is right in front of the 1Sale.com office. I feel compelled to share that it does not look like that often (maybe 1-2 days a year during hurricane season)!
I lived in Florida for 5 years. Lived in St. Louis for 15. It's not a myth, being in a hotter state makes you lazier, more tired, and decreases your productivity levels (unless you're indoors 100% of the time). It's the heat & sun and the way it affects productivity and thinking, and blood distribution.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/24/a...
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865562780/Hot-news-The-be...
For me at least, being in the heat would just drain me of my energy and focus. When I lived in Orlando, Florida my productivity just hit rock bottom. I didn't want to do anything. Neither did anyone around me. My neighbors were all lazy, everyone was lazy, the parks had a lot less people than parks up north. Every thing was just slower. Less people walked. Everyone was just inside. The sun is just intense since Florida's closer to the equator, the heat is extreme during the summer and since there's so much humidity your body can't cool itself off through sweat evaporation. Also, when you're in the heat your body sends more blood to circulate in your skin and uses a lot more energy to keep itself cool. And even simple things like going outside to check my mail would just be a burning pain. I'm serious, we all stayed indoors. We were like prisoners. Miami is even worse. And Key West was just... a boiling oven.
Compare the productivity levels, development, & innovation of colder countries with warmer countries. Is it really a surprise that so many 3rd world countries are hot countries near the equator (with very little availability of air conditioning)?
"According to this theory, about 70% of the economic development of a country can be predicted from the distance between that country and the equator. In other words, the further from the equator the more developed a country tends to be." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_determinism
After my Florida experience I'm staying away from the south. Some people love it there though.
Not necessarily contradicting you, just offering another data point.
Now living in a major western european city for 4 years and almost everything about europe blows the states out of the water
Nothing compares to the food of new york city. Absolutely nothing. Don't even fucking try.
"I live within walking distance of two zagat top 10 rated restaurants." There are sixty restaurants within walking distance of my apartment and they're all better than anything in miami. Fuck, 5 of them are run by Top Chef winners. And there are 10 more that are better than those because the food network doesn't even get the top talent.
But seriously nyc has some good food but it doesn't have a stranglehold on great ingredients. The west coast in fact has better access and makes better use of it because it's natural to just assume that those things exists.
Some of the best food I've had is actually in local quality resturants in detroit, stl, pittsburgh, and boston, when they are showing off their natural 300 mile radius ingredients and how to use them in season.
(For those unfamiliar, Michelin stars are sort of like the Academy Awards of food. Even a 1-star restaurant is an extraordinary meal, and you should expect to pay $100-200 a person. 3-star places are reputedly the best of the best; a meal there runs $300-600 per person.)
[1] http://sf.eater.com/archives/2012/10/23/michelin_guide_2013_...
If you're a super rich socialite, then yeah, focus on the stars, but otherwise....er, well. [No diss on Michelin-starred restaurants intended! I've eaten at such places a couple of times in my life and they were very nice.]
That is not a critique, that is a statement. Pizza comes in one form, and that form is NY/Neapolitan style. The rest is some kind of bizarre cheese/tomato pie bread thing.
I like NYC pizza, at least from the major famous places. Your typical corner pizza is no better than any other corner pizza place on the east coast.
I live in Tokyo right now and I definitely eat better than I did in NYC. NYC only has Tokyo beat on prices, since both places only have mediocre Mexican food.
Good fried chicken, I would expect can be found outside of midtown/downtown Manhattan although I haven't explicitly gone looking. Good BBQ is pretty easy to find, especially compared to most places on the East Coast, obviously it doesn't compare much to SC or KC proper.
And get out of my way. [1]
Compare this to where I grew up: the only places to eat closeby were mcdonalds, wendy's, and burger king type places. We didn't even have (and still don't have) a starbucks, and it was a ~big deal~ when chipotle and then a panera came in.
I do miss cheap gas station slushies, though. They're hard to find here in NYC.
I'm sorry you choose to live somewhere that only had McDonald's close.
We have plenty of food close to the source here in nyc, too. Try union square on a saturday, or any one of the many places that makes things from local ingredients. It's actually much more common to see that here than the midwest. Plus, there are tons of different ethnic food places that aren't even available in less diverse states.
There's also this thing called "the Atlantic ocean." Good luck getting fresh sea food where you live, if being ~close to the source~ is so important to you.
- You win no favors with the trump and SP on that
- http://www.restaurantpi.com/ is good but it's not the best. Obama loves it and pissed of chicago for it though
- Seriously though, pizza is a regional thing. I'm not going to convince you that your pizza is shit no matter how crap the ingredients and the velveta topping are. You're not going to convince a CPK fan that their pizza is shit.
- The best Chicago style pizza is actually in STL. That's a challenge and a threat.
Threat of good food taken.
As an immigrant I'm struggling to find a way to parse that sentence that isn't at least slightly derogatory.
Isn't pizza an "immigrant" food? Or General Tso's chicken? California rolls? In the context of being in the USA, wouldn't French food be "immigrant food"?
I'm not trying to be purposely obtuse - but like the word "ethnic food" I can't see any reasonable definition that doesn't betray an unfamiliarity with what's being discussed.
I have a feeling that "immigrant food" falls into the same category as "I like ethnic food" - it's a concept that doesn't even parse if you've got even a basic familiarity with a wide range of cuisines.
OIt's all a lookout for foods I've never seen before as well as getting better and better at the giant melting pot of food we already love.
I'm not trying to be a jerk but and I know it feels bad to stay "Immigrant food" but that's what it is. New food new people. I love it.
Where are the martians. I want martian nachos.
I'm not saying the food is better than NYC, you guys win on sheer volume, I'm just saying it's damn good & really easy to find (unlike the suburbs I grew up in)!
You end up sounding just like so many New-Yorkers --annoying and conceited. But no, living there doesn't make you special. It's just a big city, and not the only one in the world.
I just moved to NYC, though, and the food options here are incomparable to anywhere else in the US I've been. (Note: I haven't been to San Francisco, and while I'm sure it has good food too, NYC's excellent transit system means I have wider access to places.)
I'm continuously surprised by how CHEAP things are, too! Yesterday I paid $1.50 for a box of strawberries, $0.75 for some cherry tomatoes, and $2 for a sizeable package of freshly chopped and peeled kiwis. (In the midwest, I'd pay almost that much just for the strawberries.) To top it off, I had the best lamb and rice meal I've ever had...for $5 from a halal food cart. (I actually spent an hour today looking for the cart again, I liked it THAT much, but it was nowhere to be found. I will look again tomorrow!!)
Of course, I still haven't found anywhere that sells a gallon of milk for less than $4, but I'm going to keep searching. I kind of enjoy exploring places and mentally marking down which place has the cheapest offering of a certain thing.
If I were to guess, I'd say it was Halal Boys Platters on 53rd and 6th. Those guys are legendary.
The quest to find the mysteriously vanishing halal cart continues.