FlyKly Smart Wheel | Hacker News Reader

FlyKly Smart Wheel

kickstarter.com

324 pointsBerislavLopac189 comments

FlyKly guys: Welcome to HN. I know that a lot of this thread is going to look like we're hating on your product. (Personally I think that if you deliver it with the level of finish you're aiming for, it will be pretty cool). Mostly we're not, this is how we roll. For geeks, we've got x-ray vision when it comes to most new technologies so we see right down to the basic principles (which are almost always simple) right away. These are almost never the most interesting parts of new product releases but will elicit the predictable "pfft, Thomas Edison did it in 1913...". Water off a duck.

What we will do is pour our thoughts like water through your product and ideas. Anything that's not perfectly thought through is going to leak. I hope you'll take the criticism in the (mostly good) spirit in which its offered and use it to build a better product.

We're also going to read one sentence of your copy and assume that we know everything about how it works. We're going to draw a quick conclusion despite have never developed anything in that space and assert that your product has fundamental flaws without understanding your research, your market, or your funding model. We're going to compare your product to previous market failures despite fundamental differences that actually go so far as the previous product never having been produced.

But hopefully you'll still be able to get something useful out of this crowd :D

Heh. Some of us might. There's no shortage of cynicism to go around, here and everywhere.

On the other hand, what does the HN crowd say about technologies they really do find uninteresting and unimportant? Absolutely nothing. They drop right off the bottom of "NEW" without a single comment.

Edit: And to be fair, most market-speak is so vapid that we often only get one meaningful line of copy stating the purpose of a thing and a picture showing us its general physical shape to go on. We have to deduce everything else from that. In short, we've gotten used to disappointment.

"On the other hand, what does the HN crowd say about technologies they really do find uninteresting and unimportant? Absolutely nothing."

This also encourages us in a way, as weird as it sounds. It probably means we're at least doing something right if everyone is paying so much attention to it. Thanks!

We're definitely getting a lot of useful information out of this, even if it appears somehow hostile at first. This way we can quickly see which information is even more important to stress and even what we somehow missed out initially.

We also do our best to be critical. It makes us look smarter.

"Negative reviewers were perceived as more intelligent, competent, and expert than positive reviewers, even when the content of the positive review was independently judged as being of higher quality and greater forcefulness." — http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=7402

In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so.

Interesting quote. Who is this "we", an actual critic? No, it's just a line from the antagonist in Ratatouille. It's not a critic's view of the profession.

I personally find people like Lester Bangs, Robert Christgau, Pauline Kael, and Eileen Jones incredibly enjoyable to read. Some "creators" like Wes Anderson actually went to great lengths to get Kael's opinion.

One-upper posters are annoying, but barbs disguised as blandishments like Ratatouille's bug me even more.

I'd guess the real "we" is the writer of movies speaking through the character about their perspective on critics. So it would be not the critic's view of the profession, but the criticized's view. In this instance, that seemed helpful.

Criticism, like music, can be done poorly by nearly anyone and have little meaning, or by someone who has trained and studied carefully. Consider the source, I guess?

By the by: Did you really just criticize my critical quote on criticism? Recurse you, RodericDay!

> In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read.

It's not as easy at it seems. A critic needs to have experience, knowledge, and a certain eloquence in order to have any kind of power or influence. And a critic does take risks every time he writes a piece. Should he write something bad, he may lose his reputation and his following. A critic has to be consistent over time as well - one cannot say A and then B about the same time 2 years later. It's more challenging that it seems, and that is probably because this line was written by a movie script writer who does not like critics.

- Anton Ego, a character from the film Ratatouille (2007)

> from the film Ratatouille (2007)

Which was, incidentally, not a very good or meaningful Pixar movie whatsoever.

For those downvoting my comment, I would like to hear your opinion as to why you think otherwise.

I don't even disagree with you, I just think the comment is unproductive. You're stating an opinion as fact, and not even giving your supporting reasons. And it's not even on-topic.

I didn't down vote your comment, but I think ratatouille is one of Pixar's best films, and you made no attempt to justify your low opinion of it.

OK. I found the story weak, the characters relatively dull, and I don't really have any fond memories of any moment in the movie. There was really nothing that made me laugh. Note that I did not hate it, but I just found it very average.

And I liked many of other Pixar movies, some of which are among my favorites.

ah so you really don't like it? I thought your was a tongue in cheek comment since you just provided a negative critics of something just to prove that negative criticism is easy and painless.

Perhaps the HN community judged your comment not very good or meaningful whatsoever.

I actually thought the comment was brilliant satire, becasue you wee being critical of a comment about being critical

Thanks! We're fully aware of how HN usually works, some of us actually regulary reside here. That's actually why we rather hang out here and answer your questions than in other comments sections where the debate would not be so intriguing.

We're looking forward to replying to all of your posts here since we believe this is one of the best ways to articulate our points more efficiently. We have the highest level of trust in our product and we'd love to see how could we be able to present it even better.

We appreciate your support, so bring out the big guns, okay?

Everyone who submits a "Show HN" should commit this to memory. This is a great place; thanks for the reminder.

noonespecial, I have no idea who you are and why you think you can speak for me. Stick to the "I" next time you decide to bundle everyone here into a single amorphous mass with you as its speaker.

I was going to join everyone else in this thread in bashing elements of the design and product, the specifications, etc. But I won't do that.

Instead I'll do the opposite.

I'll point out upfront, I own 5 bikes, I run one of the largest cycling forums in the world, and I run one of the largest cycling clubs in the UK. I get cycling.

I like it. The FlyKly.

I like it because it allows a rider to keep their existing bike, and yet to retrofit for a really reasonable price an electric motor.

I like it because the vast majority of the weight within the wheel isn't a moving thing, the batteries are fixed.

I like it because the 30 mile range, whilst not suiting my 18 mile commute for a daily charge, actually does suit the vast majority of cyclists that I know who only commute fewer than 10 miles.

I like the 1,000 cycles, which is probably 900 in reality, is actually a few years of use for the average cyclist. Even most cycle commuters don't actually cycle 7 days a week, and those do diligently do so on all work days only do so for 220 > 250 days per year.

It hits all of the sweet spots:

1) Can I keep my existing bicycle?

2) Can I just get the electric bit and not pay to replace all of the other bits I have?

3) Will it just work and be easy to install?

4) Will it help me on my commute?

5) Will it realistically last a couple of years?

6) Is it priced such that I can afford it?

For the majority of cyclists I know, the answer is yes to all of the above.

I think it's got a good chance, which doesn't mean I'll be buying one but then I'm not your average cyclist.

PS: FlyKly, you show several times the use of the wheel on a brakeless fixed-gear bike. That's just for the aesthetics right? Or is the wheel fixed compatible such that you're fine with people skid/skip stopping?

> I like it because the 30 mile range, whilst not suiting my 18 mile commute for a daily charge, actually does suit the vast majority of cyclists that I know who only commute fewer than 10 miles.

If you can easily remove the wheel, then this isn't much of a problem, they say it charges in 2-3 hours from a normal socket so you could probably get to work, plug the wheel in under the desk and have it charged well before you're going home.

yup, this is what I do with my homemade ebike http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10328825565_ef951c4367_b....

fwiw, as a designer I think this team is solving some of the biggest issues with current ebike design that is holding back wider adoption in the US/UK markets. Kudos to them, hope they hit a home run.

Or you could get motor power for 30 miles and manually bike the remaining 6. The wheel doesn't stop you from manually moving the bike, does it?

It will have to run a bit slower in the UK:

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

(Otherwise it'll be a powered two-wheeler, come under moped regulations, require a license, license plate, etc.)

"the electric motor shouldn’t be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15mph"

Curious now whether that's actually what the law says, if so it seems badly drafted. That would appear to mean a physical limit on the motor is required rather than just a software control - as then the motor would "be able" to propel the bike faster but he device as a whole, unmodified, would not.

The legislation is online:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1983/1168/regulation/4/ma...

Yeah, that's crazy. That's slower than a commuter cycling pace (16mph).

That's pretty fast for a commuter IMO. In heavy city traffic 15mph is probably above the average for cars? [quick check on Google, single search, only gave me that [some?] Melbourne rush hour traffic averaged below 20km/h (~13mi/h)].

TBH 15mi/h seems about right for an all ages accessible motorised bicycle.

With some of the long backups you get at lights around the belt in Houston (the lights are far apart, weirdly spaced, the timing is a nightmare, I'm sure), I get around 18 mph if I coast between stopped cars on divided highways and about half that if I drive like a car.

I obey the other laws, even signaling and all, but I'm almost positive lane splitting like that is illegal on bicycles (I know it is for motorcycles).

The drivers are also much worse the further out you get, since there aren't bike lanes or sidewalks (illegal but better than getting harassed), and people don't seem to know you're allowed to own your lane. My commute is mostly in a manufacturing area, with lots of dump trucks and 18-wheelers. I've been yelled at and pushed off the road by angry trucks and trailers several times.

Having something like this to get me up to the flow of traffic quickly would keep people from having to go around as much maybe, but I'd rather get one of the small gasoline engines and tanks for about half the price.

You need to differentiate from the long-existing BionX hub motors[0] which do regen braking at user-selectable levels AND allow proper 7, 8 or 9-speed clusters, unlike the single gear your pictures show.

[0] http://www.bionxinternational.com/bionx-international-north-...

Edit: the big differences would be (a) this has the battery integral to the hub, where the BionX uses a separate battery pack; and (b) that this communicates to its controller -- your phone -- wirelessly, where the BionX console[1] connects with a wire.

IMO as owner of a BionX-equipped bike, I'm dubious about whether either difference is a positive one. For (a), the in-hub battery is clearly size-limited, can't be removed from the bike for charging indoors, and would be harder to replace.

As for (b), is it really a good idea to require a smartphone to be attached to your handlebars whenever you ride? That's not an easy environment, it has a lot of vibration as well as exposure to water, dust, and sweat. A minor point, the BionX dedicated controller has an optional thumb operated throttle lever for proportional control when you don't want to pedal, and it's hard to see how that could work with a smartphone.

[1]http://www.bionxinternational.com/bionx-international-north-...

It also seems to be four times the price? That's what's listed here[1]. Either way, could you describe your experience? What do you use it for, and is it worth the expense? I'm wary of electric bikes because they are expensive, heavy, and let you exercise less.

[1]http://electricbikereview.com/bionx/sl-350/

Point (b), since the connection is via bluetooth, it doesn't have to sit on the handle bar, you could just put it in your pocket. I think it is just for ease of access and view. The mount does have straps it says, to buckle it down in rougher terrain.

I also think a safer (for the smartphone) and simpler interface to the FlyKly would be a killer feature. A battery indicator and an assist-level switch on the wheel itself would be gravy.

"it can quickly be located and tracked via GPS" but the only radio in it is Bluetooth, so I guess you can track it if you're in the same room...

"36V Lithium" battery, but no spec about how many kWh it stores.

"Top Speed 20mph". Given that it only operates when the human puts in some effort, what does that even mean? I'm guessing this is written down because US Law says if it goes faster than 20, it's no longer a bike.

"In 2011 Niko Klansek introduced the first line of electric bicycles to the USA market." Nope; ebikes have been available in the US for far longer than that.

GAH. There are lots of conversion kits you can buy today. The kickstarter gives no way for you to figure out if this is anything better.

'"36V Lithium" battery, but no spec about how many kWh it stores.'

Speculating here…

They look like standard 18650 cells to me - they're readily available in both LiFePO4 and LiPo chemistries, but with 22 cells visible in the pictures, I'm guessing they're LiFePO4 because the nearest configuration to "36V" I can think of for 22 cells is 11S2P LiFePO4 cells at 35.2V, (the LiPo cells in 11S2P would be 40.7V nominal - a 10S LiPo would be "37V", but that doesn't make sense with 22 cells all up - maybe a 10S2P "motive" battery and an independant 2S pack to run the electronics?).

Typical LiFePO4 cells in 18650 size are 1350mAhr, so I'm guessing thats a 2.7Ahr @ 35.2V or a 95Wh - call it a 0.1kWh if you like. That seems a little low to get the indicated range/speeds quoted though - if you assume reasonable efficiency at half power, and that the bulk of power at top speed is aero drag, then the 250W used to ride at 25kmh would drop to doing only 19.5kmh at 125W (power going up with the cube of the speed thanks to the v squared term on the aero drag), so your 90Whr battery will only get you ~15km. If you halve the power again to 65W, and drop to 15kmh, you'd still only get a range of ~21km.

If they're LiPo cells though (with their increased fire risks), you can get inexpensively 2600mAhr cells in 18650 size - 22 of them (ignoring the difficulty in configuring a "36V" pack) gives you a bit over 210Whr - that'd still only give a 32km range @19kmh based on my assumptions above. Cells of 3000mAhr and over are around, they'd give you 244WHr and get maybe 40km @ 19kmh and _perhaps_ 50km @ 15kmh (but that'd take you 3 hours 20 mins)…

The "1000 cycle" battery life perhaps suggests LiPo instead of LiFePO4 (which is more commonly quites as "2000 cycles").

If I had to guess - I'd say it's a ~100Whr LiFePo4 pack at 35.2V, ad that the "50km" range relies on you providing over% of the motive power and travelling at a maximum of half top speed or so.

250w should get you close to 35kph on flat terrain. The limit is 25kph due to the legal laws not physical ones. The upside is it should be able to do 25kph up a steep hill just fine and there range numbers are reasonable. Edit: Ok, not all that steep a hill.

Hmmm - I've no good evaluation of this page's accuracy, but the first graph here says a 90kg bike/rider needs 250W to maintain 20kmh up only a 4% gradient hill. That's not very "steep". 20kmh up a 10% grade (which _is_ a "steep" hill) requires ~600W.

http://theclimbingcyclist.com/gradients-and-cycling-how-much...

A GPS module is of course also located on the Smart Wheel itself so it sends a signal on its own once the motion sensors (that turn on only after you lock it) notice it's moving without your knowledge.

The top speed means exactly that - because the Smart Wheel is a pedal assist this means it helps you accelerate until you reach 20 mph and no further. You're correct in stating that the top speed is also set in accordance to the US Law (or European Law, which allows for speeds up to 25 km/h).

We're sorry about the confusion about "the first line of electric bicycles" - this was of course meant to inform the reader about the first line of e-bikes that we're introduced by FlyKly, not the first e-bikes EVER.

Parent is asking how the wheel can notify the phone that the bike is moving if the phone is currently out of bluetooth range to the wheel

"A GPS module is of course also located on the Smart Wheel itself so it sends a signal on its own once the motion sensors (that turn on only after you lock it) notice it's moving without your knowledge."

Sends a signal to what? If you're a few feet away I don't think you'd be worried about a theft.

So if you're within a few feet of your bike when someone takes it, it will notify you? And it will track the bike for a few seconds as it goes out of range?

Your KickStarter calls this "located and tracked" without caveats. That's pretty misleading.

That doesn't make sense. GPS is not a transmitter. Will you include an embedded 3G SIM card (like a Kindle)? I'm not sure how you will get the GPS coordinates to the smartphone 10 miles away.

...the motion sensors (that turn on only after you lock it) notice it's moving without your knowledge.

Is there any reason that "locking" doesn't render the device immobile? I realize someone could still carry it off, but most thieves would be more reluctant to steal a device they have to take apart and hack before using, than one they can literally just ride away.

I assumed they meant the bike is being geographically displaced and that yes the wheel mechanism would be locked. For example if you pick up the back wheel and push the cycle on the front one only.

Top speed of 20mph specifically means that the electric assist cuts out at 20mph, and you're correct in assessing the reason. If you want to go over 20mph, you either need to do it with pedal power or get registered as a motorcycle.

Not true. The Specialized Turbo goes up to 45 km/h with some assist.

" e-bikes must have a motor of less than 750 watts and an unassisted speed of less than 20 mph. Because the Turbo is an electric pedal-assist bike, meaning you have to pedal to get any kick from the motor, the speed limit doesn’t apply. In fact, the only reason it tops out at 28 mph is to comply with European laws, which restrict e-bikes to 45 kph. Specialized installed a governor on the Turbo that automatically turns the motor off when it reaches this speed."

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/B...

I think that, in Europe, that would be called a bike, not a bicycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Europe:

"European Union directive 2002/24/EC exempts vehicles with the following definition from type approval: 'Cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h or if the cyclist stops pedaling.'"

Being a bike means (depending on the country) that you have to use a helmet, insurance, drivers license, cannot ride on an optional cycle lane, etc.

...the only radio in it is Bluetooth...

I guess I just assumed from the comment in the video about SMS that it would integrate a Qualcomm chip or something. But now that you mention it, that seems a stretch. Such a component would serve no other purpose, and really change the pricing.

...the first line of electric bicycles...

Really suspect that "the" should be "our". I have sympathy for non-native speakers of English, but this is an error that ought to be fixed, since it really undermines their credibility.

...really change the pricing.

By about $60: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9533

More like by about $240. Most hardware has at least a 4x markup from BOM to MSRP. They're not selling it for BOM cost plus a flat 'profit'.

Of course sparkfun also isn't selling at cost. That module probably costs them $30 in volume. So maybe it would only be $120 in added cost.

They show about 20 cells. For cheap lithium ion batteries, that will be something like 150 to 200 watt hours. This is not a ridiculous figure relative to the stated range.

I counted 22. I'm suspecting thats either a 35.2V 11S2P LiFePO4 pack with probably under 100Whr, or a 40.7V LiPo pack which could be upwards of 250WHr (and could get ~200Whr quite inexpensively). Another possibility it that it's a 37V 10S2P motive power battery and a 7.2V 2S pack to power the non-motive electronics (microcontroller/gps/bluetooth/…)

Niko (the CEO) is real deal - he used to work across my cubicle at Projective Space in SoHo. He first introduced FlyKly electric bikes in NYC (he did manage to sell a lot in the area). His personal story is full of inspiring entrepreneurial journey! He is now back with smart wheel! Good luck man!

Here's why I like this design.

5 kg is light for a battery/motor module, but it still adds about 50% to the weight of a decent bike. The added thickness also means it's probably not practical to put a multi-gear cassette on it. End result, this will cripple most bikes once the battery runs out. More weight and poor gear ratios = hell for the cyclist. However, most smart-bikes are crippled anyways once they run out of juice.

The great thing is that you can use the same bike for commuting that you use for your sweatier, long-haul weekend trips. All you have to do is swap the original dumb-wheel back in. If you buy a dumb-bike and a smart-wheel you almost get two bikes for the price of one.

Tip for the makers: Stress the ease of hot-swapping that wheel in even more than you are now. This is a major selling point.

P.S. I don't see a quick-release clamp on this sucker in your pictures or video. This is a no-brainier and absolutely needs to be on there.

> P.S. I don't see a quick-release clamp on this sucker in your pictures or video. This is a no-brainier and absolutely needs to be on there.

I'd only put a quick release on it if I was sure that everyone who used it was going to lock up their back wheel (I'd encourage the Sheldon Brown lock strategy [1]). Most people lock the frame and maybe the front. This back wheel would make up the majority of the cost of your average bicycle in the rear wheel alone, making it easier to steal isn't the best idea. Maybe ship it with a nice hex wrench to make taking it off easier, but a quick release on that would be a bad idea if you're marketing it to cycling novices.

I know if I got it, it'd be pitlocks all the way. My commuter is barely worth $500, this would double what it's worth in a single easily-removed part.

[1] http://sheldonbrown.com/lock-strategy.html

The weight of the bike doesn't matter. A 20 pound bike plus a 200 pound rider is about the same as a 30 pound bike plus a 200 pound rider. You're the heavy part, not the bike. (People complain about citibikes being too heavy, but I rarely get passed even on a citibike, so my guess is the problem's the rider, not the bike.)

Also, I don't think a quick release will work for this. The motor needs to push against the bike in order to move the wheel relative to the bike. A quick release will slip.

Not necessarily. QR systems such as Maxle are sturdy enough for competitive downhill use.

Also 10 pounds is a huge difference not just in the effort needed to propel the bike forward but also in terms of maneuverability, especially as it is rotating weight. And in city usage you often have to carry the bike down stairs etc. where again 5 kg and a messed up center of gravity is a big deal.

I bike about 5000 miles a year in the city and have never needed to carry my bike down stairs while riding. Once you get it home, you might need to lug it up to your apartment, but it's well within the realm of possibilities for a healthy adult to carry a 40 pound bike up a few flights of stairs. (Then again, it's also rather easy to pedal the bike around without a motor. But I digress.)

Most European cities will make you carry your bike from time to time or make huge detours. But, like you, I'm not the target customer for this so maybe people in general are more careful with route planning.

Also, I don't think a quick release will work for this. The motor needs to push against the bike in order to move the wheel relative to the bike. A quick release will slip.

Look more closely at your bicycle. The axle doesn't turn in the dropout. Rather, the hub shell turns around the axle. That's why the bearings are mounted in the shell rather than in the dropouts.

Actually I think their pill-shaped peg that slides into the dropout but won't turn within it is kind of brilliant. A very simple solution, and there is no reason it couldn't accommodate a quick release skewer.

I agree that bicycle weight is a fairly minor consideration for commuting in moderately hilly areas; I've ridden a longtail that's close to 50 lbs. for years. Maybe I don't notice the weight because I am a fat bastard.

I know how wheels work. Look closely with a bike that is internally-geared or that has a drum brake. The hub is secured to the frame or has an antirotation washer installed to prevent the hub from rotating.:

http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer_tech.html

Remember Newton's law of motion here: for every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction. As the motor drives the wheel forward, the resistance from the street will try to spin the motor backwards, causing the hub to spin in the dropouts. That's why a quick release alone isn't adequate for internally-geared hubs, drum brakes, or motors.

You assume that they need anti-rotation washers, but it's clear from the video that they have a better solution: the pill-shaped peg I mentioned already. See here for the device installed with a QR skewer for a test ride:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/10/flykly...

You are not alone in having bicycled and taken physics!

>>More weight and poor gear ratios = hell for the cyclist.

>>Stress the ease of hot-swapping that wheel in even more than you are now. This is a major selling point.

These points are really crucial. A true pedal assist is something that can assist you while it can, and then not make it difficult for you to pedal when it can't.

Besides, I feel this market has immense potential you could do amazing things with a good control system on that smart wheel. And probably some day even an ECU.

Riding my local streets, I always need to have my rims trued. Were I to buy one of these, I'd want the beefy model, or some assurance that I could find someone who could true it.

It looks like the rim is normal: they say you can specify which rim you want. Therefore I'd say the spokes are attached to the rim by normal nipples. Therefore the wheel can be trued just like any other, unless one's truing stand has some weird limitations.

KERS for a bicycle. Cool.

Given that old Lotus bike, Im surprised one for the F1 teams hasn't rustled something up. I'd have a chat with one of them and see if they would like to partner up. Especially as they are trying to be all green these days.

Can you harvest from the front wheel too?

If you slow the bike from either the front wheel or the back wheel, energy is removed from the whole bike. There's little to no benefit from harvesting from both wheels.

All the resistance is from only the rear wheel. So its like rear wheel breaking, and potential lock ups in the wet. Surely its better to spread the load. Also means twice the surface contact. Wouldn't that be better, perhaps safer, to ride? Especially in the wet.

But the extra cost and complexity, even weirder look, extra wires. For emergency braking, keep the regular front brake. For minor speed adjustments the rear brake will get the job done.

Is it doing kinetic energy recovery? My reading was it was 'only' a rechargeable assist motor.

EDIT:

dangooer found the relevant part of the page. It does KER. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6563287

I have this on my BionX system. I think regen braking is fairly a no brainer these days.

That's why I was surprised that I didn't see it on the kickstarter page. I skimmed it twice, but missed it. I would have expected it to me a bigger callout feature.

They already are for the FlyKly Smart Light! :-p

My wheelchair-using family and friends have been rocking Alber e-motion wheels[1] for some time, and would highly recommend them. Those don't recharge from motion (or as fast), or support bluetooth, but work in a similar way.

[1] http://www.alber.de/en/products/wheelchair-drive/mobility-wh...

Cool! Do you know if they have any issues with it making the wheelchair wider and therefore causing problems with doors/turning? I guess I'd have to give up my 2 degree camber with those wheels but it might be worth it.

From what I can tell (having not used one properly myself), they fit the components within the push rim, so there's no real issues with doors or turning. Just done some research for you, and looks like they can actually support camber, too!

Thank you! Much appreciated. The last time I looked at these kind of wheels they were big enough to require some modifications to the chair itself - looks like even wheelchair technology gets a boost from time to time.

IANAMechanicalEngineer, but do we need to worry about additional stress on the left dropout? The forces to which this component is typically subjected are the weight of the system and the tension of the chain. This device would seem to add an additional torque associated with driving the wheel via the pill-shaped peg that slides into the dropout.

This probably wouldn't be an issue for most bikes, but it seems like it's outside the design specs for any existing bike.

Having done e-bike mods in the past, rear-dropouts tend to be stronger than front-dropouts, and on any steel bike you can put a lot of torque on the front dropouts.

Only problem with rear-dropouts is accommodating the gearset, which they cleverly handled by eliminating the gearset; that will suck if you run out of power downhill from your destination, but will otherwise work fine.

That would indeed suck! I can see why they didn't incorporate a cassette body (and the chain clearance issues that would entail: basically everything they have on the right side now would have to be moved to the left side) but it does make the final product seem less like a bicycle. (I know, this is sacrilege to the fixie folks. Meh.)

I had another thought: maybe through judicious sizing of (front) chainrings and the freewheeling cog one could get something that could climb a hill? Will widespread adoption of this device encourage development of a front derailleur that can handle more than three rings?

This is less efficient than putting all the batteries and other gear on the frame, right? Spinning all that mass around will take energy. I don't see an advantage unless you expect to swap wheels out often.

The Smart Wheel actually consists of two halves one of which is fixed (it doesn't turn). The battery is therefore stationary and doesn't require any kinetic energy to be spinned around the axis.

Oh, I guess I didn't pick up on that. Thanks for the clarification.

But from a business perspective, people who care about their bikes enough to spend big coin often care about the way they look. And attaching a battery w/ leads to an electric wheel is a major buzz kill imho.

It doesn't appear to support bicycles with gears. Is that something planned for a future model? Or do gears somehow become unnecessary with electric assist? Could you even retrofit this to a standard cheap 15-gear bike, or is it strictly fixed-gear only?

I think it supports bikes with gears where the pedals are( in the middle not on the last wheel ). If you look in the video at about 3:58 you will see some bikes with gears. This does limit you to two to four gears but that should be enough. Just have two low gears and one high one.

It replaces the need for gears. The motor does all the work for you so you don't need to gear up or down.

Future designs could integrate a hub-gearing mechanism.

"It goes up to 20 mph (25 km/h) for a 30 miles (50 km) range."

The speed conversion is way off. But the distance conversion is pretty good. Wonder why that is.

I mentioned that on Twitter. It turns out that those are the limits according to the laws in US (20 mph) and EU (25 km/h), so it's top speed is limited accordingly depending on the country it's in. It's also an amazingly confusing way of putting it.

Uh...yeah...20mph isn't 25km/h even if you are in the EU. They could use an additional sentence there.

And worse...where does that leave Canada? Or any other of the 98.5% of countries that use the metric system?

The chances of me sticky-taping my phone to the front of my bike are non-existent.

...but also, won't charging this be a complete pain? I'm just imaging a bicycle sitting next to all the other USB charge devices on my desk. Awkward...

Considering the acceleration of the motor is controlled wirelessly, I wonder if you could attack it so it e.g. accelerates uncontrollably.

I imagine there's hardware limitation of the maximum current flow from the batteries (above and beyond the natural limitation).

Perhaps less catastrophically but similarly you might attack the lock, engaging the lock would most likely produce a skid and loss of control. With a solenoid engaged by a control circuit might that be possible simply by blasting the circuit with radio waves to induce a current? Thus you'd bypass having to gain access to any software controls and such.

Much easier to just nudge the back wheel with your car or shove a stick in the spokes if you're in to knocking people of their bikes though?

I like the concept very much, but they're being a bit dishonest about the "fits practically any bicycle frame". Even in their own video, they show the wheel mounted on bikes where it absolutely does not fit with the brakes: see http://imgur.com/lZZ2ABg

Could you fit it the front wheel instead? Less work with the chain, and you can keep all your old gears. Not sure how it would affect the "drivability" though.

I was wondering about having a trike with both back wheels motorised (or a wheelchair?). Weight at the front does make it easier to fall off though I feel.

It's an interesting idea. But there are some big obstacles:

1. I question the need for a retrofit product. There are many mature e-bike designs on the market. I doubt it would be hard to find an ODM or CM that could sell you a good design off the shelf.

2. Many e-bikes have removable batteries. You can charge them at work. This doesn't look like it could.

3. Maybe the e-bike isn't the sweet spot. Maybe a slightly larger electric scooter is it. Or maybe an even bigger three-wheeler like Toyota has shown.

4. Outside of China, where gas scooters are prohibited in many (all?) cities, e-bike have not caught on (though I see quite a lot of them in Manhattan, still not enough to be mainstream)

Retrofitting avoids the problem of needless waste and cost when it comes to the vast quantity of existing bikes out there. I don't want to buy a new bike if I can avoid it so replacing a wheel is quite a bit more appealing. I can't imagine that I'm alone in this.

In fact, I'd argue most people would be willing to try this if only because it only involves replacing a wheel. It probably won't cost nearly as much as a new bike either so folks who couldn't otherwise afford it can purchase.

Plus, the target market doesn't likely have storage space for both their existing bike and a pedal assist model. If I'm a city-dwelling hacker, I'd prefer buying a wheel over a scooter. I just pulled up listings on Amazon for inexpensive e-bike pedal assists, and they're mostly largish scooter-types that take a significant footprint to store compared to a bike which I can hang on my wall.

Plus, having a wheel allows me to continue using my tires, frame, accessories and everything I love about my current commuter bike.

Also, I would use the e-wheel during the week for my commute to work and come the weekend I could fairly quickly switch the wheel over to my regular one and exercise properly. One bike, two purposes.

That's true. One of our neighbors used to take out the front wheel just for storage when he got out of the elevator. There's just no room and folding bikes are still a little expensive (unless you're lucky enough to score a used one cheap that needed a bit of TLC).

Not too mention the many different styles and models of bikes with different levels of design.

Of all the bike shops in Boston there is only one that I know of that sells wheels for older bikes. There are multiple widths between the dropouts and for the gear cluster for 5, 6, 7, etc. speed hubs. There are multiple rim diameters. There are multiple spoke patterns.

That alone makes it unlikely that, even if you are not alone, there aren't enough of you to matter when the FOB price of a basic e-bike is about $300.

Retrofit markets for anything less permanent than a house are very very tough.

I live in New York and we have tons of bike shops. Actually the area I live in attract a fair number of tinkerers and it's not unusual to see some weird contraption affixed to a vehicle that was formerly a bike. And used bikes in pretty good condition are bought and sold here ( sometimes even bartered ) for $180 - $300.

I can totally see this taking off here.

Electrically-assisted bikes are quite popular in Japan, although the Japanese bike market is so huge they're probably still only a small proportion of the total.

Your concept of what an "e-bike" is seems a bit of out sync with this product. This isn't a scooter, or a scooter-replacement, or something you use for drag-racing with your friends. This is a modest assist for a normal bicycle that helps take the edges off normal bicycling. When you're hauling two kids and a load of groceries up a hill, a little bit of help can be very appealing... but it doesn't have to be a replacement for human effort.

If anything, this product seems to fit in a space beneath existing e-bike designs, which might be more powerful, etc, but exist in far smaller numbers than regular bikes, and so offer far fewer choices as to design, style, quality, etc. By making it possible to just choose a regular bike and "add electricity," they've given the consumer who wants the convenience of an electric assist a huge increase in choice.

Petrol assisted bikes, where a bike is retrofitted with a small 30cc engine, is hugely popular around Buenos Aires. I saw lots of them when I visited recently and they were fairly cheap apparently.

There are plenty of retrofit options. This is just a retrofit in a shiny iphone inspired design and a price tag to match.

This problem is more to with technology than acceptability of e-bikes. The situation is like people complaining there is no demand for touch screen phones and they won't take off. And Apple comes along and shows them the iPhone.

The fact is you need to do it right. And its not just about the pedal assist. You need good battery performance, long lasting battery life and efficient motors. At the other end you need a good control system on board, which might more or less function as an ECU. When the pedal assist is no longer functioning or dead, its weight and friction shouldn't become a burden on the cyclist.

In all, if you look at it you are looking for an amazing electric driven engine of sort with a sound control system on board. I don't think people are putting too much mind into that. We are where cars where in 18th century.

These are the kind of projects which help local commute a lot. If you are commuting frequently to pick up groceries, or drive up to the local park for a jog, or anything local for that matter. You absolutely don't have to use your car, or your motor cycle. This would do.

We are just not doing it right, may be we are not serious about it. But someday, someone will come along as give something so awesome. We won't be able to resist ourselves to using it.

...where cars where [sic] in 18th century.

Where was that? I'm not aware of any vaguely car-like device developed between 1700 and 1801.

In France they are catching up I think.

If you don't mind having to position a battery on your bike, for $399 you can already get an electric wheel.

http://www.electric-bike-kit.com/hill-topper.aspx

Otherwise I've been using a wheel and battery from http://www.leafmotor.com/hub-motors/16r-electric-hub-motor.h...

If you're more into plugging stuff together yourself. They also offer more wheel sizes, like 700c.

While we're plugging ones we've used, I like http://www.ampedbikes.com/ I have an old ugly battery; they now have a shiny frame battery that I can't justify buying.

These guys made an electric bike/scooter hybrid a few years back that had some buzz here in NYC before release, but just seems to have fizzled. I'd be curious to know what happened.

What's to stop someone from just taking the wheel when it's locked? Or removing the wheel and taking the rest of the bike?

Nothing... you'd still want to lock this up to something. And at $600 for just the wheel that's increasing your chance of it being stolen as well, bikes get stolen far too often.

It looks like this wheel is using a standard quick release. If that's the case it would be fairly easy to take out. Couple of options though:

- When locking the bike, run the lock through the wheel. Yes, someone could still cut the spokes and steal the main hub, but this is going to take q fair amount of effort.

- Have a bolt on version, lots of older bikes, or bikes which use a horizontal dropout design already have this. Typically they use 15mm wrenches, but there are some alternative sizes (some even use hex keys).

Looks like a pretty cool concept. I personally would prefer a model which only gained energy from the rider when coasting down hills or braking, then could release the energy at the riders discretion. Plugging a bike into an external power source isn't something that interests me.

The quick release in the video and the photos is used only for demonstrational purposes in the prototype phase. The final product will come with anti-theft screws that can only be used with a custom made wrench.

Of course the features of locking the motor and tracking the Smart Wheel via GPS are still helpfull in case someone still decides to steal it.

> I personally would prefer a model which only gained energy from the rider when coasting down hills or braking

But then you gain nothing, on average.

Of course you gain, since that energy would otherwise be wasted as heat.

You would lose going downhill (when you don't need it) and gain going uphill (when you do). Seems sensible to me.

Their "Find my iPhone" style tracking and alerting presumably.

Via bluetooth? I think not...

But the iPhone (normally) has a 3G/4G data connection.

Most bikes I see in cities in Europe have hub gears in the rear wheel's axle. I think this won't work with these because if you put that wheel in, you loose the hub gear? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hub_gear

Can you have hub gears in the pedal section?

No, the gear is in the axle. My bike has this too. I'd love to have something like the FlyKly but as it is, it won't work.

I did some research and pedal section( bottom bracket) gears exist, but aren't very common.

http://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/8872/bottom-brac...

http://www.haberstock-mobility.com/en/products/schlumpf-driv...

http://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/5274/why-not-hav...

Im curious how does the (normal) braking system work? If the motors helps push against hills it pushes against resistance like the rubber brakes too? Surely its not always regenerative braking? I guess you always have to stop pedaling for that to kick in.. It is nice though to go down a hill or even flat land on free without feeling the resistance of regenerative braking or something slowing you down.. Do we get control over this?

The second was how does it talk to the phone without a SIM card or some kind of internet connection if you're a couple of storeys up in a building where Bluetooth? doesn't have any range?

Otherwise this is pretty awesome, although I do like getting a bit of a workout when going around I like when you want you can move around stressless it would be awesome for 'those days' and not have to use a car.

If this project is like the other Kickstarter projects I've backed, it will meet its funding goal then be delayed by months and months, if not years, with letters of apology sent every month or so. It's a shame because Kickstarter is one of the best things to ever happen to capitalism.

I thought electric bikes are illegal in New York??? http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/04/electric-bikes-...

They are illegal to ride on the street, not to possess. So you can build them in NYC and ship them to somewhere legal, and everything is fine.

Battery life of 1000 cycles? Isn't that a bit low considering it'll only take you about 30mi/50km per charge cycle?

If they had some way of restoring the batteries without replacing/repurchasing the wheel, I'd be less concerned.

1000 cycles of 30 miles is in average way more than an average commuter spends riding over a course of a year. We believe this distance is acceptable for a product with a one year warranty.

Of course the battery pack will also be easily replacable.

So your view is that the expected lifetime of the product is identical to your one year warranty? I think that's the sort of thing you're supposed to let your disappointed customers discover after they've purchased.

Interesting interpretation of that comment. I read it as "30,000 miles is WAY WAY WAY more than the average commuting distance in a year." Not "is equal to". Do you think the average bike commuter lives 50 miles from work?

Not unrealistic if you happen to 25 miles away (journey each way) but definitely not your "average commuter". (I used to cycle 20 miles each way, I knew someone that cycled 35 miles, but for different reasons than just commuting).

Reading comprehension is not HN's strong suit.

Or basic arithmetic. 30,000 miles in a year is about 3 x 30 mile trips per day, every day.

>1000 cycles of 30 miles is in average way more than an average commuter spends

Even if you rode your 30 miles every day, that's more like 3 years and less like 1. I wouldn't be disappointed if I had to change my battery (which really should be considered a consumable) after nearly 3 years. None of my phones that cost this much or more have done as well. I would like to see a slightly longer warranty on such an expensive thing, but its not completely out there.

What constitutes a charging cycle? Connected to the mains? What about all those micro charges you get along your journey, going downhill or braking?

Presumably the battery capacity will diminish over time, and you have some smart software to counter that as much as possible? Any expectations on how much the range will reduce by? Will the app tell us the range?

Really interesting project, looking forward to it.

As far as I know, the general meaning of "charging cycle" is "used up a full charge worth of power." Whether you recharge from 50% to 100% twice, or only use 10% of the battery before topping it off 10 times, you've used one cycle.

Ok thanks, makes sense.

I consider this borderline scammy. Products shouldn't be expected to become unusable right about when the warranty ends.

Doesn't that just mean you have a particularly good warranty? It would not make sense for the warranty to last significantly longer than the expected lifetime of the product, so the only alternative would be to have a warranty that explicitly lasts much less than the expected lifetime. This seems strictly worse than the alternative!

Usually if you buy a product with a one year warranty you don't expect it to be unusable after 13 months. I don't know if they can swap batteries though, that would change things.

What I'm not clear here is whether this does regenerative braking, or only charges at home. If it's regenerative, it's awesome and I want it. I've actually wanted to do a DIY regenerative braking project for a bike for a long time (impracticality and net-loss-due-to-added-weight would not really bother me as long as it worked). Somehow, if it's only charged at home, I feel like it's kind of silly, like a way to make biking lazier.

Still, in any case it would be awesome in that it would make biking practical in hilly areas where it is otherwise a horrible mode of transportation.

From the Kickstarter page:

"The battery also charges when you’re going above the desired speed, riding downhill or pedaling with the motor off."

I'm disappointed it doesn't (seem to) do regenerative braking... so elegant, don't waste that power, reuse it! But I don't think this is a big selling point, and you can always add it later.

I think your marketing approach is what will make or break it: "non-sweaty to dates/interviews" and the phone-charger could be the killer app (perhaps look into what segment actually experiences this pain most? Many of today's phones have adequate battery life for some people's usage; target those phones + usages that don't).

Regenerative braking often doesn't pay off. Note that you don't need a whole lot of energy to put your bike into motion, while you need quite some energy to keep it moving due to friction. Putting in numbers, if you go 5m/s=18km/h=12mph, your kinetic energy is 100kg*(5 m/s)²/2 = 1.25kJ, which at 125W can power you for ten seconds.

You can cast longer than ten seconds in front of a red light in most situations. And keep in mind that for regenerative braking to work, you must walk twice through the whole efficiency chain, which is generator -> electronics -> battery -> battery -> electronics -> motor), giving you an efficiency of about 0.85^6=37%. So 3.7 seconds.

It only comes in 26 and 29 inches size. Good luck then selling to one of the biggest market of Bikes (and electrical bikes), Europe, where the common size for Urban bikes is 28 inches.

Will this only work with single speed bikes? What about bikes with gears in the front and/or back, they will need to be converted to single speed I presume?

I absolutely want one of these. They've thought of everything. As I went to pledge my money for it, I found that the starting pledge that actually gets me a wheel was $550 and that's all gone. So to get one will run me $590 and presumably more in retail. This is where "more accessible" as one of their goals falls short.

It looks great, but I'll have to pass at the price.

Sweet product. But am I the only one who has noticed that the "locking" feature is an absolute joke? Esp. in NYC, where the most burly bike locks money can buy keep you a mere step ahead of only the least-committed thieves.

Also, can this thing run without a smartphone? If it's raining, you certainly don't want to keep your phone on the bars.

I was trying to figure out if this same type of thing would be possible to build into a car tire. I haven't been able to figure out braking yet?

Is there any work being done to simple regen braking systems that could easily be added to cars?

Will it come in black? 700c?

I'm pretty sure when they say "29 inch" they mean "700c". It's the same bead seat diameter.

I do hope this will work even if I don't have a smartphone.

It's ridiculous how a lot of mechanical things today are bound to the digital world when they don't need to be.

This has been done before, not sure why it warrants a kickstarter.

The Copenhagen wheel has been around for around ~5 years and looks identical to this, sans the GPS.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/16/mits-copenhagen-wheel-tur... http://www.soullessmachine.com/2013/01/the-copenhagen-wheel-...

We're aware of the many similarities people will want to draw with Copenhagen Wheel but allow me to introduce some important differences as well:

1) Smart Wheel introduces a brand new electric motor that is thinner and lighter (and more efficient) than any other before it. Copenhagen Wheel uses regular rotary motor that's heavy and cumbersome, not to mention it's not a replaceable wheel - it comes together with the whole bicycle.

2) The GPS module might seems like the only thing that separates the Smart Wheel from the Copenhagen Wheel (it's not) but it's the difference of how they use this data that makes all the difference. Smart Wheel uses GPS data to learn about your cycling habits and routines and then suggests on how to improve them. This data can also be used to help improving the cycling experiences of other people. Copenhagen Wheel measures noise and air pollution levels and uses them for statistical purposes only.

3) Smart Wheel is opensource which means our users will be available to develop their own apps and other tools to find new innovations to using the Smart Wheel. We're already working closely with Pebble Watch and other similar devices are in the works, too.

4) Last but not least, despite being around for ~5 years, Copenhagen Wheel is still only a prototype with no sign of ever being available to the market. Smart Wheel is becoming available in May 2014.

...not to mention it's not a replaceable wheel - it comes together with the whole bicycle.

Are you sure about that? http://senseable.mit.edu/copenhagenwheel/wheel.html

> The Copenhagen Wheel turns the bike you already own, quickly and easily into an electric bike with regeneration and real-time environmental sensing capabilities.

Albeit, the big caveat being point 4 you mention of course! :)

The copenhagen wheel looks pretty cool. Too bad nobody can buy it. I guess those copenhagen people can put whatever they want on their press release since they will probably never turn it into an actual product.

>>Copenhagen Wheel is still only a prototype with no sign of ever being available to the market. Smart Wheel is becoming available in May 2014.

This of all, is the most important thing.

People often forget how much work goes into producing a shippable product out of a prototype.

But most importantly, there is no patent protection for the Copenhagen wheel.

Ugh...I hate this type of comment. First, the lame "been done before". Then criticizes the project for being on Kickstarter. Next, references a product that is not even available (and throws in "~5 years ago" to try to really rub in how late this product is). Then admits it's different! Yuck, yuck, yuck.

GPS is not that much of a differentiator, and looking at the Kickstarter I don't see much else that is different.

The OP is right. This has been done before, and failed before. What is different about this? How will this succeed where others have failed? The site doesn't seem to address that at all.

But it has NOT been done before! The Copenhagen Wheel is not available for purchase. And even it had been done before, what's wrong with putting it on Kickstarter? There's no require for strict novelty. Finally, the project member noted some additional differences.

Because the Copenhagen Wheel isn't a thing you can buy. http://senseable.mit.edu/copenhagenwheel/index.html

The FlyKly looks surprisingly similar! Anybody know why the Copenhagen Wheel isn't a thing you can buy yet? Was the technology not mature enough?

From their video it looks very similar with phone app, maps, traffic etc. I wonder how many patents they have registered on this thing. Does the Kickstarter account for that?

Jules Verne wrote a fragment that's pretty much this exact thing in 1857, modern bicycles have changed little since 1885 and Edison showed the basics of electricity in 1879. This stuff has been in the public domain for close to a hundred years! Also Verne wrote about flight in 1887 and this doesn't have it. So while it DOES have GPS and bluetooth, it still seriously underwhelms in the flight department.

Realy, other than something you can order, what does this have going for it?

Will it be waterproof? ipx7? What about vibrations? The housing for a Di2 battery case are enormous compared to the battery it contains.

This is the Copenhagen Wheel from Andy in Weeds!

spelling mistake: "and it weights only 9 lbs (4 kg)"

Unsprung mass

Many bikes don't have any suspension springs. What is your point?

Possibly that the device won't stand up well to the rigors of regular riding? Potholes, curbs, railroad tracks, stairs, etc.? With all those different batteries, if any particular solder connection fails say once a year on average, this would be totally unusable after a few months.

The batteries don't rotate.

Unless you're disabled, why do people want an electric bicycle? I figured most people cycle because they love cycling and the exercise of it. Including hills. Is this product meant to attract more automobilist?

Some people (myself included) cycle as a commute. It can be exhausting - I wouldn't mind a little help on those uphills.

It's true in the USA that a disproportionate number of people bicycle as a sport, because we've marginalized it as an athletic activity. The market of people who would bicycle if it was less effort (or safer, or more convenient) is huge.

Electric bicycles are pretty big in Japan - a lot of mothers and housewives use them to get around all the time as they don't tire you as much as normal bikes.

Also, there's a few bicycles these days with two childseats, so that's a lot of weight to cart around.

A bit of info here: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2008/08/17/travel/electric-...

Maybe in Tokyo, but I have never seen them in Sapporo. That must be why everyone is so fit :)

Cars cost a few thousand a year + large initial investment. Lots of people bike in cities because they can't afford to drive/pay insurance/gas/parking.

It's not always convenient (or even possible) for your everyday transportation to also be exercise. Electric assist extends biking range (and makes biking possible) for people who would otherwise need to use another mode of transport -- because you have an important meeting today and don't want to be sweaty, because you are sore from weekend exercise, because the office is a bit far, because you have to pick up groceries, because you're 70 years old, because you're 8 months pregnant, because you have a cargo bike, because you have a serious bike race later in the day....

Electric assist is fairly common in the Netherlands (I have family there), where a pretty big percentage of the population uses bikes as the basic mode of transport. It's really sensible to have the option to ride somewhere without it being a workout.

It's not practical for many to arrive at work sweaty from a bike ride. It a commuter vehicle.

I take my kid to school in mine, and get groceries etc.

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