Fish oils don't slow mental decline | Hacker News Reader

Fish oils don't slow mental decline

newscientist.com

44 pointstokenadult48 comments

Here's another study that found DHA did slow mental decline

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20434961

The study you cite is a better study too in that it's randomized controlled prospective study, whereas the one linked here seems to be an observational one. Observational ones are the ones where everyone says correlation doesn't imply causation.

Full Text: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/43533989_Beneficial_...

Ugh, I wish New Scientist would just go away. No link to the original study, gross exaggeration of the study's findings and scope in the headline. And a mention that one study doesn't overturn the entire existing body of research would have been nice.

I hate when these researchers don't stick to the rationally implied conclusions. "We see no correlation" is the rationally implied conclusion of the research. "Maybe it's affluence" is not science, at that point the researcher became just-some-guy(gal?) throwin' out his theories.

I absolutely agree. I would also add that as scientists we have the ability to shape opinions because our statements tend to be taken as fact (whether or not we are speaking about our field of research). With this comes a responsibility to be honest and transparent, a responsibility which is shirked all too often. The idea that this study is somehow the end of the discussion and it is now "proven" that Omega-3 fats don't help curb memory loss is laughable.

It's common when writing a scientific paper to write opinions like that. "We showed there is no correlation. Possible explanations for past correlation may be..." It's not just some guy throwing theories against a wall to see what sticks. It's someone who has studied this exact topic for many months or years.

Yea, I see your point. I think I'm more annoyed by the title which greatly overstates the implications of the study.

Exactly. Speculation from someone who is entrenched in the study of a subject is very valuable. Is it not speculation that leads to further investigation and eventually a scientific study? Educated guesses is just as much a part of science as doing an actual controlled study.

Yes, but then the news media steps in and claims that the gods of science have spoken. Then if this article gets refuted a year or two down the road, the damage is done because the public moved on.

So, fix the media. Don't whine about the scientists.

Pundit and research scientist are different roles, however. Yes, his punditry may be more informed than most other's, but the lines would be kept cleaner if the punditry didn't come out when formally addressing the research. It's a fine topic for future research, but until that future project comes, I'd rather see it kept separate from the formal project conclusions.

It's called confirmation bias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

That's really stretching the meaning. It's more like "guessing" than it is "confirmation bias."

Fish Oil does however help with anxiety and depression!

A large mega-dose of DHA/EPA (~1600mg of DHA, 1200mg of EPA) is the difference between my being stuck at home, and my going out to a party and socializing.

Fish Oil is not a panacea, but, there is lots of evidence [1] in its favor.

[1]http://examine.com/supplements/Fish+Oil/

That's a lot, where do you buy it?

Also all I brands I've seen are higher on EPA over DHA. (The one in front of my is 780mg EPA and only 260 DHA)

Does that still help you or do you need a certain ratio?

I buy off from Amazon, the reviews are helpful. "Nordic Naturals" is a good brand to check out.

Do you think the amounts of EPA vs DHA are important? Do you worry about too many heavy metals?

You want a good 3:2 ratio or so.

Good brands independently list how much EPA and DHA are in each pill. Bad ones say "1000mg". That is useless, you can end up with minimal EPA and DHA and a bunch of filler oils. Meh.

Best I've found is ~600mg EPA and 400mg of DHA per capsule.

Edit: Good brands are purified, heavy metals should not be a concern.

which one do you buy and how much are they?

I honestly cannot remember the brand right now, I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home, but that is many hours away!

!! I remembered

THe highest ratio I have found is

"Life Extension Super Omega-3 EPA/DHA"

It is 700mg of EPA and 500mg of DHA. 3 a day!

Thanks. What do you think of this one? Is Swanson a good brand? You can't beat the price.

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-efas-super-epa-fish-o...

Well be aware, 300mg of EPA means the value isn't quite as good as it may first appear. Multiply by 2.3 to get the dosage the same per $!

I have never used Swanson stuff before, typical worry about low cost fish oil is that it isn't filtered for heavy metals as well, and it may have a smell to it. Of course YMMV. :) I typically go to a local shop (more expensive of course!) and try out a brand there first, since I typically can return even the opened bottle if I feel something is wrong.

What do you mean about multiplying by 2.3?

The bottle I mentioned is 700mg per capsule, the one you linked to is 300mg per capsule. Price per capsule is therefor not a good measure, you need price per mg instead. :)

(Also remember to take into consideration number of capsules in the bottle!)

But the serving size on yours is two pills. Maybe you need to double up?

Bleck, you are right, I shouldn't do math at the wrong time of day. :) The ones I am using right now is something from a company called SOLGAR (never used them before), 1 capsule is 504mg EPA, 378mg of DHA.

Still a fair bit pricer than the ones you picked out though, even ordering from Amazon ($20/bottle of 100)

Is that per serving? Some brands may have fudged their numbers to appear better, but the amount of EPA/DHA per softgel could be much lower.

I'm curious — do you take it all at once? How long does its effects last?

Yup, all at once. Effects are 6-8 hours. Typically just 4 capsules.

Fish Oil is interesting in that at different dosages it acts differently. You have to basically mega-dose it to get the anti-anxiety and depression effects. (As always, YMMV)

So you take it in the morning?

Taking 2800mg of fish oil and then parting while smelling like an aquarium. Tell me more about your success with women...

Good brands are purified and do not have any smell. Buying stuff from reputable brands I've never had a whiff of anything.

I see a similarity between this study and the recent crack baby myth debunking - it's not the crack, it's the poverty. Only in this case, they're suggesting that it's not the Omega-3: it's the affluent (and health conscious) vs the not-so-affluent.

Measuring blood levels of Omega-3 seems a strange method. Presumably they correlated high blood levels with high intake?

Follow the money. Who funded this study? Also, better summary here http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/news/20130925/...

What's interesting to me in that study summary is this:

"...between 65 and 80 years old who had normal thinking and memory at the start of the study... The women took tests on thinking and memory each year for an average of six years. Blood levels of omega-3s were taken at the start of the study.

Overall, the researchers found no changes in mental function based on the levels of omega-3s in the blood. "

Given that age range, isn't maintaining baseline a net positive effect?

DHA is "almost 50% weight of the neuronal membranes[1]" in the brain. If your body does not have enough of it from the diet, it has to be synthesized in the body. It is a lot more efficient to supplement it and a lack of it is known to create mental decline.

It is well established within the Nootropic community that nearly everyone should supplement it. I take Jarrow Max DHA 2-3 times per day (500 mg DHA and 72 EPA/per cap)

[1] http://medind.nic.in/icb/t05/i3/icbt05i3p239.pdf

I would be interested to see what the blood levels of EPA/DHA were in the patients studied, the article isn't really helpful in that respect and it may be important.

Yeah and medicine does not help final outcome, which is death.

Great news, Fish oils are very expensive lately.

Isn't this the same thing as "Meat does not make you muscular?"

There has to be a combination of diet and exercise.

There is, however, a significant correlation between meat eating (or more specifically protein consumption) and muscularity. If you corrected for exercise in the right way you would still see this correlation (a naive approach would remove all effects of exercise and you would lose the correlation).

So if this study is taken at face value (and well, no, don't do that) there is no correlation even before correcting for other factors.

If you do not work out, the meat merely makes you fat.

I don't think correlation means what you think it means.

That's not exactly true. I saw a study recently that showed high protein diets increase lean body mass independent of exercise.

>>If you corrected for exercise in the right way you would still see this correlation (a naive approach would remove all effects of exercise and you would lose the correlation).

I'd like to see some citations for this.

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