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Comment by skriticos2 | Hacker News Reader

I'm typing Dvorak since almost ten years now and from what I remember it's damn hard to re-learn the layout (was touch typing QWERTZ before). The hard part in not even the initial memorization of the keys, but the old reflexes that kick in once you stop actively focusing on each key and let your subconscious take over.

I did not regret my decision (far from it), as Dvorak is indeed nice to type and quite readily available out of the box.

Normally you don't get much benefit from switching layouts though. Especially as developer. As an author or someone who is writing prolonged texts in plain English, yes it's definitely an advantage. Yes, it's also more fun to type. But really, QWERTY is good enough in most cases. You don't really need to bother.

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100% of alternative layout users i know are developers.

100% of the layouts still treat symbols as second class citizens.

my typing would vastly improve if a keyboard simply added another row for symbols so they are one key press only.

changing layouts only help in a few cases and turns using somebodyelses computer or a phone or a tablet or a virtual keyboard or remote vim sessions, etc a royal pain in the ass, because they will be qwerty.

I've been using a keyboard layout I made with Ukulele that swaps the symbols with the numbers and I couldn't be happier. You get used to it in less than a day of typing and it makes all the () $ @ ! so much easier. It makes so much sense as a programmer when symbols are typed so much more frequently than numbers.

Here's a link to download my .keylayout file (goes in ~/Library/Keyboard Layouts): https://www.dropbox.com/s/8hy5391ay2u0dta/US%20Symbols.keyla...

I use programmer dvorak, which also has swapped numbers and symbols and it's a blessing. The good thing about this one is also changes layout of the symbols so it's really a lot nicer to use.

Whoah I never even thought of doing that. It seems like it would work, I mean I really don't type numbers all that often these days... hmmm. I might chuck it on my laptop and see how I dig it for dev. Tempted to swap [] and {} as well. It's a similar concept to swapping F-keys for media keys, which I have and much prefer.

This is exactly what I've done with KeyRemap4MacBook. It has built in options for switching around numbers and symbols, as well as changing {} and []. Makes so much more sense for a programmer, and you can make multiple sets of options so you can disable them if someone else needs to use your machine for a bit.

Brilliant! I especially like how it would work with any of these keyboard layouts and requires minimal retraining.

any idea how to combine this with vim/vimperator/pentadactyl?

it seems to work with ^ but with the vim plugins, following a link requires numbers. pressing shift every time is less ideal. and in vim you use numbers quite a bit too (for moving and editing).

:hintkeys

sure but switching to homerow hints would mean i lose the ability to use the text of the link to narrow it down?

I'm using Vimium and it uses from one to three letters as a label for a link. I used Vrome earlier where the links where numbered. I find Vimium scheme much faster. Especially because the labels are generated intelligently, from adjacent (and preferably home row) keys. I never missed an ability to write a bit of text from the link to select it - instead of text, which can be both longer and less convenient to type, I have short labels, displayed over the beginning of link when I press F. I don't need to look down on keyboard or move my hands to numpad.

So I suggest you try this mode and see for yourself if it suits you.

thanks. i actually used homerow instead of numbers for a month or two. for some odd reason, i find it quicker to discern what combination i have to press with numbers. 'dk' is harder to pick up then '18' for me. or on company websites you can just do 'fconta' and off it goes. you dont even have to look for the link

> I don't need to look down on keyboard or move my hands to numpad.

that does not happen for me anyways. i use my numbers too much (e.g. switching windows/tabs).

No, just use uppercaps letters for hintkeys :) That way, you can still type to narrow down the links, and then press shift and select whatever link you want with homerow.

or put your keyboard in AZERTY mod, it does the same.

holy !!!! never noticed that!

it also makes ç and é easier to type, which is a must for all latin languages i know!

will remap my number row to azerty's

The irony, of course, is that programmers like myself adopt the US layout (instead of the local one, German in my case). To access \[];'/ without breaking fingers, having 'easy' access to @{}|:"

I do understand that there should be room for improvement. The situation is just so much worse if you look at other layouts as base line..

What I do is I have a second layout just for symbols which I toggle with Alt Gr using my right thumb. This way I can stay in the home row and accessing symbols is almost as fast as letters. You'll need a wide layout with 12 home row keys for this to be comfortable though (my right index rests at the l instead of j).

As a bonus I map Shift to the right Win key so that I can press it with my thumb as well. Using the thumb for Ctrl is also doable but it's a little annoying when you need to use the same hand for the combo.

The article does exactly this - there is a programmer workman layout with the symbols and numbers switched.

Take a look at programmer's dvorak [1]. It treats numbers as second class citizens in favour of symbols. It comes pre-installed on some linux distros, but it won't solve your querty problem.

[1]: http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/

Symbols are in the same class as uppercase letters in the Neo layout. They are easily accessible by pressing the caps lock key.

Hover your mouse over "Ebene 3" here: http://neo-layout.org/

It's not completely what you're looking for, but I use this[0]. I think it's great and I've been using this and only this while coding for about 8 years or something. The symbols are typed with Alt.Gr. + the keys specified.

[0] http://aoeu.info/s/dvorak/images/svorak-A5.png

As for your second sentence (symbols), if you ever go to France, you will be shocked. As I guess is everybody...

It seems like an algorithm to design a custom layout should be possible. You keylog what you type for a few days, then the algorithm could give you a few layout suggestions based on your keypress stats.

I'm seriously considering remapping the number row so that tve symbols are first class. I think that would bring the greatest cost/benefit ratio.

I think the best way is to have a custom keyboard. Google ErgoDox, you can program your own keys to suit your needs

I've been considering to try the use a foot switch as a shift key.

I was touch typing QWERTY before I switched to Dvorak and then to Programmer Dvorak and I agree that old habits are hardest part while you are learning new layout. I think that Programmer Dvorak is really useful for developers. I don't have any regrets. I don't have any pain in my hands any more. I'm more productive. And I think that at least everyone should try something different. QWERTY is good enough but isn't perfect IMHO.

i switched to Dvorak but it was too left hand heavy. Had to switch back to QWERTY afer a while.

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