Modern Minimalism | Hacker News Reader

Modern Minimalism

thepatshea.tumblr.com

44 pointsthepatshea90 comments

> I have an 11-inch Macbook Air and an iPhone 5. No other devices.

For some reason, I knew this was going to pop up somewhere in the list.

Smartphones are arguably one of the biggest gadget of the century. And they can be used to watch TV, movies, read news, books, as GPS, as game device and so on.

So why iPhone and no soap?

Because this is the kind of minimalism only quite rich people can afford. I once met a girl, who said "when I travel, I only need my hang-glider. Everything else I can buy when I'm there". It was a refreshingly honest expression.

hipster logic 101

Creating temporary accounts to post harsh comments is also something that I have hard time to understand.

I know several ego-minimalists. They never post anything online, ever. No facebook, no twitter, nada. No one online knows just how hip they are on the inside.

Another rent-a-cliche is the inevitable Moleskine notebook. You sometimes even get to find out what make of bag they use too, like it could possibly matter. It's egotism and childishness combined, IMHO. For "minimalists" they really seem to care about brands :)

No soap radio.

Hey guys, I'm the OP.

I have an iPhone/Macbook because I'm the technical co-founder of a web startup. I love technology and want to use technology to change the world. I try to stay up-to-date so I can understand what current technology is capable of. I understand that most minimalists don't love technology. That why I called it "modern minimalism" instead of "traditional minimalism".

You guys have a lot of questions and I'd love to answer all of them. I'm thinking about posting a video FAQ about modern minimalism. Would anyone be interested in that? I want to share everything I can with you about my lifestyle, and I'd love any feedback you guys have on how I can improve my lifestyle. I'm also interested in hearing about your lifestyles, as I respect and admire the Hacker News community a lot.

> You don’t need any of those soapy substances. It’s all a big lie perpetrated by people who want your money. If you eat/sleep/exercise properly, you will almost never get sick and your body will never smell bad. You won’t need to overcompensate by wasting money on soapy substances.

[citation needed]

Citations are a big lie perpetrated by 'big soap' as well.

But, but... then this corporation's reach must date back to thousands of years ago, when we (falsely) discovered that proper hygiene was deeply correlated with improved health. Does it control the World Health Organization too? Oh my...

Everyone is in on it. Even kindergartens. Do you remember how you were taught in kindergarten to exercise proper hygiene? Turns out that they are really just the gov't's tool to brainwash (pun intended) you into using soap.

Yeah I mean, it's not like the advent of soap and the generalisation of it's use (along general hygiene) revolutionised the world or anything.

All those people cleaning their clothes with soap on the river in the 16th century were clearly being lied by corporations who wanted their money.

And there are more than 7 billion people in this world. In japan, sick people wear face mask to minimize the spread of their sickness. We use vaccines to protect us.

Humans are not perfect creatures.

On a side note: does he at least use soap when he goes to the bathroom, you know, to have a shit?

I only wash my hands in the bathroom if I shit on my hands, and that happens at MOST two or three times a week.

... They get vaccines in Japan. I can't tell if your wording was AWFUL or you think people in Japan don't get vaccines.

From what I've seen..smelled.. you get accustomed to your own odour, it doesn't go away. You need soap, modern minimalists.

Haha you're right. Point taken. I don't have a citation for that one. It's just an opinion I've formed based on my personal experience. I don't know if anything I've said will work for anyone else, but I know that it seems to work for me. In the future, would you suggest I make it more clear that I'm just expressing an opinion when I say stuff like that?

As someone who has a pretty simple life (my most valuable possession would probably be ~100kgs of books, stacked in 2 fairly small boxes), I'd love to know a couple of practical details in your life (if it isn't too snooping, that is)! The question will be fairly personal, because pretty much most other stuffs won't be essential.

Do you take a bath daily? How do you brush your teeth? You seems pretty young, and things like teeth cavity might not be a problem yet, but it's hard to say what will happen in a few year.

Why did you make a decision to not have any soapy substance? It seems like a single small bottle of something that can be used both as shampoo and body soap would accomplish the same thing. And bathing after sweating without soap just never seems to work for me.

And are you sure that you're not smelly? I'm honestly wondering since it's fairly hard to for one to detect our own smell - we just get used to it.

I noticed myself that if I wash daily, I would not need shower gel. I use it nonetheless, but I could go days without soap (or the perfume contained). EXCEPT if I drink coffee - that makes my sweat somewhat smelly (you probably won't notice it though, only I do) :)

Toothpaste: There are people who get cavities while using toothpaste 3x a day, while I haven't gotten any cavities in the last few years although I have limited brushing to 1x per day (evening). I had minor tooth surgery once, but that seems to have stemmed from an overzealous dentist drilling too fast into a minor cavity which he should just have left alone (causing shock within the tooth, leading to inflammation). But, I'm not sure whether I would ever go entirely without toothpaste. I might research into natural substitutes with similar chemical compounds.

Deo: You certainly don't need it if you eat clean and shower every day.

Shampoo: Some people report that omitting shampoo works well, but there's a nasty transition period of a few weeks in which you might look like you dipped your head in grease. Reportedly, skalp skin reduces the amount of fat secreted if you stop constantly washing it away.

> Shampoo: Some people report that omitting shampoo works well, but there's a nasty transition period of a few weeks in which you might look like you dipped your head in grease. Reportedly, skalp skin reduces the amount of fat secreted if you stop constantly washing it away.

Who are those people? I'm genuinely interested. I got rashes that are made worse by shampoo.

Threads like this one seem to be a good starting point: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=68552

Although I must say, advice like this:

  if your goal was to go product free (as in chemical free) you can always try Water Only but instead of baking soda you can try doing the egg 'shampoo'. You take one egg, one tea spoon of honey and one tea spoon of extra vigrin olive oil; mix that up very well as in whip it and then add few drops of lemon or lime juice. (if you have dark hair I would suggest heating up the oil with honey in the microwave for 30 seconds. Just make sure it cools off before you add it to the egg).

is not exactly my cup of tea :)

I've been shampoo free for three years, now. It's like the parent says. My transition period lasted 4 weeks and I wore a hat the entire time. After that, my hair was the softest it's been in its life. No fuss, no muss. I wash it daily with water, when I shower. I use neither shampoo nor conditioner, just water.

Here's an article[1] by a guy who did it as well. He was linked on boingboing in 2009 and 2011. His site also has several updates, as much as a year later[2]. I think one of the boingboing guys did it too. There are links to the boingboing articles in the first link[1].

On the soap issue, I remember reading a study conducted a while back about the difference in bacteria counts after going to the bathroom. They compared not washing to washing with water to washing with soap and water. There was one particular bacteria that was only effectively eliminated when soap was used. Apparently, it was small enough to hide deep enough in the folds of your skin that water alone couldn't touch it. So, I do wash with soap after going to the bathroom, but I don't use soap on my body when I shower.

[1] http://freetheanimal.com/2009/12/paleo-i-dont-care-i-like-no... [2] http://freetheanimal.com/2010/02/no-soap-or-poo-update.html

From what I've gathered, toothpaste is "nice-to-have" - the mechanical aspect of brushing (gently, with a soft brush, lest you damage your gums!) and flossing is much more important (which is why you need not go with anything more extravagant than the cheapest brands, so long as they contain fluoride. It just doesn't matter that much).

Great questions.

Every morning I wake up, exercise, take a shower, brush my teeth, and floss without shampoo/soap/toothpaste. Soapy substances have never seemed necessary for me.

I consulted my dentist about my decision not to use toothpaste. She said that if it works for me (which it currently is, according to her) then I'm fine.

I'm 99% sure I'm not smelly. Whenever I make a lifestyle choice that causes me to smell bad, my parents inform me of my foul odor. I've found that by keeping my hair short, eating healthy, and showering daily, I can avoid smelling bad. I did go a few days without showering once. I smelled bad after that, so the daily shower seems to play an important role in my smelling ok. I also shave my armpits to reduce the risk of smell even further. When they're clean-shaven, they pretty much don't sweat if I'm not exercising, so they don't produce much of a smell.

Getting flashes of http://www.theonion.com/articles/im-just-a-free-spirit-who-i...

Hey guys, I've posted a follow-up video to answer a lot of your questions about my modern minimalism. I hope this helps clear up some confusion.

Video: http://thepatshea.tumblr.com/post/63809364097 | Discuss the video: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6538136

It's funny how people who say they are minimalists start listing the things they don't have in the "physical" life arguing they are not needed. But then, they have an iCloud account, a twitter, facebook, flickr, instagram, reddit, gmail, you name it account. How about a minimalist virtual life too, where all you have is an email account? an e-minimalist?

I think a minimalist life should be more about "using" less (and accomplishing more) than about plain raw "owning" less.

That would be Richard Stallman.

I think the concept of "e-minimalism" is great.

I think it is useful to recognize that "stuff" is a system, and as a user, the system of "stuff" requires some maintenance, is at risk of failure (by theft, loss or damage), though despite the drawbacks does provide benefits that make life better. My water filter makes water taste better; my sweet chair is very comfortable. My car drives me to the beach to surf regularly. Some stuff requires greater scrutiny -- the high maintenance demanded by the car in terms of time and money indicates that I would be wise to carefully consider if the benefits outweigh the costs.

Technology systems can be measured similarly -- do the costs (time, money, cognitive load, opportunity cost, presently and in the future), outweigh the benefits. Making that measurement is difficult, and our minds are not exactly rational actors when it comes to deciding to adopt technology -- we are easily swayed by social factors, and it is hard to measure the future cognitive load and opportunity cost of a technology system. Being an "e-minimalist" could be a useful heuristic.

Since benefits of "stuff" and systems can vary subjectively, I think minimalism (as a philosophy or hobby) is a subset of a larger identity question from the individual -- "what is my relationship to the systems at play in my life?" Attempting to optimize that relationship usually leads to more happiness than ignoring the question.

For some people, minimalism for "stuff" is a solid optimization. E-minimalism makes lots of sense, too.

Out of interest: Where do you stay? Do you rent a flat/house? If so: How do keep it clean? What do you eat? Are you out-sourcing your food production? I am asking because, the smartphone discussion aside, i find it questionable to speak of minimalism if you just trade most of reproductive labor for money. I guess most of (single, childless) readers of HN could just live in an hotel suite without owning anything beside an laptop. I am sorry if that sounds mean, i am no native speaker, i mean it sincerly; 1 month ago i moved to another country to live here for one year and everything i took with me fit in a small backpack. I am still living quite minimalistic on 25m², but i have stuff like a broom, some kitchen equipment, even two beds - one for guests - and an external monitor. Oh, and soap ;)

I am sure this guy is still living with his parents judging by the stuff he owns. If you live on your own you NEED things like a refrigerator, a stove, pots and pans, cleaning supplies, kitchen knife, lamps, a table, chairs, the list can go on and on.

Not if you can afford eating out for every meal.

Would that not go against his claim that this all saves him time. Cooking a meal at home would be much less time consuming than having to go to a restaurant and sit doing nothing while they cook your food for every meal.

I co-founded a web startup and live in a house with my co-founders. We pay our bills through revenues and investment.

My goal is to survive on Soylent when it comes out. I've already pre-ordered a month supply. Until then, I survive primarily on Orgain, a drink similar to Soylent. I also frequently eat out with my friends.

Some of the attitudes in the minimalist movement strike me as cargo-cult. What I mean by that is that they seem aimed at optimizing the how-much-stuff-you-own metric itself rather than what it's supposed to be a proxy for (lack of mental burden, control over your life). This is tantamount to assuming that complexity is inherently unmanageable, which I disagree with.

Venkatesh Rao has a good post on the matter somewhere.

Edit: As for the link posted (whether or not it's genuine), I wonder about

>I don’t have a bed or a pillow. I sleep in a small sleeping bag.

Is this healthy in the long run?

Minimalism or not, I would like to expand on one of the points - most cosmetics in wide circulation today are really terrible. If you look up their ingredients and look at chemical properties of those, it's all about optimizing the technological process to be as cheap as possible and producing short-term pleasant sensations for the customer, health considerations being completely absent.

Basically it's an example of a problem with market economy that probably occurs in other fields too sometimes - customers themselves do not always notice long term effects of using bad chemicals on their skin and are apt to buy products that smell nice, lather or distribute easily and so on, so almost all producers end up producing products that give a good first impression at the cost of being harmful in the long term. For example, almost every shampoo or fluid soap contains some form of SLS, because it's cheap and because it makes for a nice emulsion, despite research showing it is apt to cause skin irritation. Also popular are mineral oils, which is quite an euphemism for a byproduct of petroleum distillation. If you consider this just the next quack fad, talk to someone who uses some of those chemicals in a lab.

I think many people actually believe (and specifically use for the reason) that using cosmetics product would be useful for them in the long run: reduce wrinkle, aging etc. As I have no knowledge on this, can anyone weight in?

Actually, I recently tried to verify the claims about horrible consequences of SLS from anything other than semi-conspiracy-theory sites. I might have missed something, but what I've found was boiled down to it being pretty much a non-issue. What it did turn out, though, is that we use too high doses of soaps and shampoos in general, and they are actually intended to be used in minuscule amounts.

Also, "byproduct of petroleum distillation!" is the new "unnatural!" is the new "if got intended X to Y, he would Z!".

What it did turn out, though, is that we use too high doses of soaps and shampoos in general, and they are actually intended to be used in minuscule amounts

Well, isn't this a confirmation of what I have said? Like producers of cosmetics encourage us on a regular basis to use up as little of their products as possible? I like what Chomsky said on a somewhat similar topic:

If I'm analyzing capitalism and I point out that General Motors tries to maximize profit, that's not a conspiracy theory. That's analysis.

It's not a conspiracy theory that companies try to maximize profit, in fact that's one of the basic assumptions of free market economy. I don't even ascribe any particularly cynical viewpoints to any of the individual people involved, but in any large company responsibility becomes so diluted it's easy for things that are quite bad for society in general to just happen without anyone being left with much remorse. I think it's quite rational to expect that markets that are not regulated to some extent might degrade in those nasty ways.

Not for any kind of generous reasons, but probably to avoid problems with consumer organizations, but I recall most packaging mentioning "small amount". Might be an European thing, though.

Since nobody else has pointed this out: the rest of the guy's website reveals him to be a stand-up comic. The ridiculousness of this post is intentional.

Wait... is this a parody? Please tell me it's satire.

A "minimalist" shouldn't need a fucking smartphone and laptop.

But if he didn't have a laptop, he could not post on his tumblr and you would be deprived of these nuggets of life wisdom. Is that really what you want?

I thought it was pretty obviously satire, but so many people are taking it seriously here; now I'm 98% sure it's satire.

It's satirizing the likes of Ev Bogue who actually used to post nonsense like that. I believe Bogue has changed from minimalist snobbery to "pretend to be a techie" snobbery now though. And I think he changed his name too.

Ugh, not this holier-than-thou minimalism meme again.

I have tons of possessions and when I don't feel like it I just don't maintain them! Guess what, plants aside my possessions don't give a shit and I have just the same time gain.

That's nice but the most important question is, did you write a pretentious blog post about your life style on your tumblr?

I find it a little curious that most commenters here are focusing on his mention of not using soap, but not asking about how his source of income, food, or shelter. That iPhone 5 comes with a monthly bill and requires recharging daily.

Clearly, his soap bills were hundreds of dollars a month. Now that he's quit his soap habit, he's got enough for the iPhone. For shelter, he built a yurt out of soap wrappers and self-esteem.

Meh. I am in the process of buying a foldable kayak. I plan to kayak in Patagonia in 2015 and I crossed Poland, Austria and Slovakia with a canoe the last 2 years.

Point is: my kayak won't fit in a bag. Then what? I should buy and iPhone and spend my time on fb? He doesn't even have an ebook, does he read?

I do consider myself a minimalist, but in the way I embrace only the minimum to live a full life, not just for the sake of it. You can't seriously think you can spend all your life like that. What will you talk about with your friends if you have nothing going on? What will fulfill your life growing old? You can sit and think only so much.

I'm very interested in doing a long distance river trip in Europe. Can I ask which route you took through those countries? Was dealing with locks an issue or did you just carry your canoe past them?

Hey, great why don't you email me? Do you have experience with kayaking? We are planning to go kayaking in the Guadalquivir in May if you are interested. Otherwise, I can share with you our itineraries (with locks) for the Danube (Passau-Bratisalva) and the Vistula (Cracow-Gdansk).

To your question. The routes we look are river only, meaning, we pick a river and we just keep going. Locks usually are not an issue, you either go pass them as you said (so pack well and get a cart 1) or you use a sluice.

The thing I would really be careful with is falls. Even 2m falls can be dangerous. We got very close (like 5m from it) to a 10m water fall in Vienna on the Neu Donau. It was not in our itinerary because under a bridge and not visible from google earth.

1 Couldn't resist: http://www.vanwal.nl/photos/albums/vistula-june-2013-/img_06...

The site you've linked to is throwing up a security warning in Chrome.

Solved

This is just doing shit so you can call yourself something. I didn't have a bed or pillow for 3 months. It was uncomfortable and although I got used to it I woke up with neck/back pain every morning. It's a stupid thing to do on purpose.

As for not using soap - please start again. I don't want to be shaking your hand after you've been to the bathroom. And how about in hospitals? Do you make an exception to wash your hands with the provided soap before entering a ward?

Also, getting rid of soap, socks, and a bed does not give you more time.

I feel a dose of Poe's law being administered here. You're being harvested for new stand up material.

Note that the OP does stand-up himself. He may or may not be pulling a Kaufman on us here.

Every time someone tries to convince me they've found some awesome way to live their life (or do anything) and hints that they've tapped into something undiscovered, or something we'd all be doing if we weren't so blinded or busy being tricked by 'the man', I have to remind myself that we're not all the same.

It needs to be repeated. We're not all the same.

To think that we are the same and make decisions based on that assumption (and use that as a basis for any kind of advice) is at best, foolish, and at most, dangerous.

Here's my ridiculous strawman (which is for entertainment more than argument, like any good strawman):

I don't need a wheelchair. The average person doesn't need a wheelchair. So let's do away with wheelchairs!

Look, sure, I've got a lot of stuff that I don't need and shouldn't need. Upon accepting this truth I didn't dump all my shit and try to fit my life into a backpack. I'm married, which brings with it a whole bunch of compromises. This post, and many like it, reek of someone who doesn't have to make a lot of compromises. I'm sure it works for him. It may not work for you.

Wear sunscreen.

Not this again.

I have just moved to another country. While my wife wraps up her job in my home country, before she moves here, I am moving from apartment to apartment with only a suitcase full of clothes, my laptop, and a phone.

Frankly, I hate it. It's great to have a safe and familiar place that you can call home. It's great to have a sofa, a bed, a stack of books, some nice photos on the wall, a kitchen with cooking tools, etc. Also, it's utterly impractical to be a minimalist when/if you get children. Or a life partner who doesn't hold the same philosophy.

I believe in the middle way: don't be overly consumerist, don't be ascetic. There is nothing wrong with having a home and owning stuff (like two jeans).

(Of course, each to his/her own, but I think for 95% of the population extreme minimalism doesn't make them happier.)

I did the no-soap thing for awhile. I wouldn't recommend it, unless you're looking to live some kind of counter-culture lifestyle and purposefully alienate people in the mainstream who aren't as open-minded as you are.

Once I stopped, cut my hair and dressed more nicely, I noticed everyone around me, even the open-minded folk suddenly being a lot more friendly.

My take-away: don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Soap is one of those things society believes we need and it's not all that harmful, even if it doesn't really help things much. So just use it.

How do you exercise without smelling?

Or do anything without working?

Sweat isn't what makes you smell, it's stale sweat that smells.

Anywhere that bacteria and fungus can grow is going to harbour germs.

Tackle those places and you won't smell.

Tackle those places with what?

Hot water will suffice

Hot water weakens the skin, leading to more infections.

It really doesn't. I mean, after awhile you'll get used to bathing without soap and you won't think you'll smell, but you will. Especially if you stop using deodorant as well. If you're an anti-social sort and don't really care what people think about you, then knock yourself out, but if you like people like I like people, do them a favor and get some soap. It's cheap.

This was written by a crazy person.

"I have one pair of shorts with built-in underpants."

...what?

I suppose he is talking about some kind of swimming shorts. Those often have built-in tights.

i was worried more about "one" (1) pair. But now that you mentioned it, this whole matter becomes really disgusting.

Wow, people here are obviously much more attached to their lifestyles than this guy, considering the amount of hate he received in just a few minutes. I mean, he was relatively non-judgemental about the whole thing, and people here respond almost like being attacked personally.

Sounds like 18 year old me. If I met that me, I'd probably throttle that me whilst yelling "put that credit card away and get a job" and such. But if successful I guess that would cause a paradox and so it isn't likely to happen.

How does watching movies on a laptop rather than a TV create "Time. I have time. Lots of it". I think he's missing the part in his life where you can own something without having to use it all the damn time.

this is just stupid. my body creates so much sweat and oil. probably more than a litre evey week. there is no world without soap for me. i would itch and smell so bad that i wouldn't have friends.

Not enough sure should i mention it here, but I'm hardcore soap user and still no friends :(

Hardcore soap user? I'm not sure you're using it properly

When I was traveling in Asia I didn't use any soap or shampoo for a month. My hair didn't smell and it felt the most healthy I've ever felt.

you must be from north of europe. with a skin that doesn't create oil.

"I don’t use ANY soapy substances" "Time to spend ... chasing girls" Not sure why you need to chase them.

This was a successful troll. I actually believed you were serious for several hours. Thanks for brightening up my day.

paging Moxie Marlinspike ... http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/the-worst

I I I I I I -- wow. You said I 53 times.

That is not modern minimalism. You are a contemporary pseudo-ascetic with narcissistic overtones.

edit - removed the angry and hot-headed language

10/10

You made me reply.

get some socks man thats disgusting

> I don’t use ANY soapy substances: ... toothpaste, ... deodorant

So.. are you living in Europe then?

Or the USA? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/31/fashion/31Unwashed.html

Contrary to common belief the Great American Invention of soap is being imported and used in large parts of Europe now! ;)

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