Built for Bitcoin. Next Run: Early 2014 | Hacker News Reader

Built for Bitcoin. Next Run: Early 2014

lamassu.is

55 pointssiliconesoul30 comments

It's not a "Bitcoin ATM". It's a "Buy Bitcoins for cash" machine. And there is a huge difference.

I'll get excited when I see a machine that DISPENSES cash for Bitcoin, anonymously. That will be a breakthrough. For the moment, in spite of many claims, Bitcoin remains the most easily trackable currency and there is no way that I know of to get money out of the Bitcoin system in a way that can't be tracked.

I wonder what the implications are of doing BTC->FIAT.

The definition of ATM From Wikipedia:

is an electronic telecommunications device that enables the clients of a financial institution to perform financial transactions without the need for a cashier, human clerk or bank teller.

Yes, I was certain somebody would nitpick on the details. Somebody always does. But I think I was very clear in describing what I think the difference is, and I also think that most people when asked to describe an "ATM" would not describe a machine that takes your money, but rather one that dispenses it.

Even the full name of "ATM" doesn't limit itself to withdrawals, just as Tellers have never been limited to withdrawals.

Much the way that international ATMS allow you to "buy" the local currency for whatever currency may be in your account.

> there is no way that I know of to get money out of the Bitcoin system in a way that can't be tracked.

https://localbitcoins.com/

> LocalBitcoins.com is a marketplace for trading bitcoins locally to cash or online payments of your choice.

IANAL, but from my layperson's understanding of FinCEN's statements, selling bitcoins on localbitcoins.com (indeed, even offering to sell them) without a MSB license is a felony.

I deleted my profile on there when someone pointed that out to me.

This machine accepts tons of world currencies. This will be much to the disadvantage of its owner, who will now have to try to change $20 in each of a dozen currencies to the local fiat currency. Doing this will be somewhere within a triangle of difficult, annoying, and expensive. Once owners figure this out, they will probably demand a way to program their machines to reject most currencies, just like everyone else does.

Accepting "currencies from over 200 countries" is not a good thing when there aren't that many countries in the world with currency you'd want to hold. Nor does it reassure us about the machine's ability to reject counterfeit notes--owners won't be able to verify notes they don't normally use, and BTC will ensure that fraudulent depositors have low risk of being caught.

I think it means the note acceptor is physically capable of recognising notes from 200 countries. You presumably only configure it to accept notes from one currency at a time.

Considering you have to be physically present to use this, I think this is almost a non-issue, considering the huge majority of users will be carrying the currency of wherever the machine is located.

I think "Bitcoin ATM" should feature in the title.

I'm not sure if the "compact size" is such a good thing - There is a reason why ATMs are so big..

(A junkie with a crowbar)

Internal GPS should be reasonably junkie-proof, no?

Maybe, but non-junkies will cover the antenna before they rip the device away... Which will be difficult since the internal steel vault is bolted to wherever the device stands.

I would love to see these in airports! There's already lots of security there so no need to make them huge.

I'd like to see the reverse in airports: Land in some strange country, immediately get local currency for bitcoins.

The device might be interesting though. If you have some remaining bills and you are lazy to convert them. I have, maybe, $100 of cash in many different currencies remaining from my travels.

The machine looks small, can't someone just pick it up and run?

No. The machine will be smash and grab resistant. It is not meant for unattended or outdoor use, but it will have thick metal mounting plates, a dual locking system and an internal strong box for the cash.

I used one of these the other day to try to buy $1 worth of bitcoin. It spun forever and I had to leave. Don't know if it ever actually went through or not, but it should've given me a timeout message way before 5 minutes of standing there.

Really? I'm kind of amazed by this whole thing - I never thought there would be a desire to purchase bitcoins in real life with physical cash. I always thought of it more as a online thing people would do via exchanges, smart phone apps, etc.

If you don't mind me asking - Where was the machine? Why were you buying bitcoins there vs just using an online exchange?

It was at the money2020 conference and I work in the bitcoin industry so I was naturally curious.

I guess it adds another layer on anonymity to it. Online exchanges often require your name and address, and even if they don't, you're probably going to be funding it via a debit card or bank account which can be traced back to you. By using cash, there's no way of identifying who purchased the bitcoins (except via cctv I guess)

Whatever the location, you can imagine the CCTV that will be around them when they appear in the wild.

What's the business model for operators/buyers of the Bitcoin machine?

"The operator of the machine, be it the distributor or individual owner is responsible for loading the machine with bitcoins. In other words, he who holds the private key."

"The operator of the machine sets the fees and ticker prices. That too is easily set via the administrative interface."

It's a bitcoin vending machine. Owner of a bar/cafe/shop can accept bitcoins for payments and load them in this machine to convert them to cash. Those who want to spend bitcoins don't need to find those who want to buy them.

Shops have easier way to accept and convert bitcoins into local currency => more places to spend bitcoins => more places where to buy bitcoins => more people using bitcoins => value grows => more shop owners are interested in keeping some BTC as an investment => less need for local currency => less friction => more bitcoin adoption => local currencies die out of hyperinflation (aka massive sell off) => fully deflationary economy => we all die in a deflationary spiral (not really ;-)

The machine doesn't do BTC to cash, but rather the other way around.

Indeed, but a cafe owner can accept bitcoins as payment for their goods, and then sell those same bitcoins to the public via the machine. This takes away some of the friction from bitcoins becoming just another payment form like credit cards.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that workflow :)

When I said "owner can load BTC in machine to convert to cash", I meant that people from street will put in cash for his coins.

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