Ask HN: Disrupting online dating - valid thoughts?
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The things described in the linked post (commonalities) are important parts of dating and attraction, but initial attraction is much more about the subtle things: Body language, subtle personality cues like clothing and hair style, all sorts of instant non-verbal communication, social proof etc. So either you have to remove these factors from the equation entirely (I can't really see how to do this) or you have to make an arena where they can be properly expressed.
This would mean, essentially, arranging real-life encounters where everybody has a decent chance at relaxing and being themselves. The thing is, nightclubs do a pretty good job at this already. The biggest solvable problem of nightclubs is differentiation; if you go to a nightclub you invariably meet the outgoing, confident, secure club crowd. It's always a high-pressure arena. But actually, relaxing and being yourself around strangers is pretty damn difficult as it is.
This is just the basic human part of the problem. But there are much deeper issues to think about. Sexuality and relationships are a very sore and difficult part of human nature, and it is never rational. There are chaotic, unmapped social issues here as well; for example a lot of women are interested in sex just for the physical thrill but have a huge social barrier against casual relationships. On the casual dating scene, this manifests itself as a series of games of playing hard-to-get, blaming alcohol for a successful one-night-stand, etc. I don't think anyone has the vaguest idea of all the other similar, irrational cultural norms that will bite you in the ass if you try to tame this problem.
Online dating is difficult because
+It is hard to convey your personality over an internet connection
+No one is able to tell you what you're doing wrong, since the rational and quantifiable part of dating is so small
+There are a lot of unmapped social and human behaviors that will fuck things up
Basically, I'd just try to tackle some difficult technical field instead. Human sexuality is too chaotic and hard to quantify.
However, I do like your idea of using an existing social network to bootstrap the thing. It is the best solution of the chicken/egg-problem I have heard.
I don't know where you live but I've never been to a relaxing nightclub where everyone was encouraged to be themselves. In fact, it's almost the opposite: a loud stressful environment where everyone is dressed up and trying to be someone they aren't.
To meet women at a nightclub you are pretty much taking a shotgun approach. You need to have no shame and be the guy with the most cocaine. Online, you just need a decent photograph and a funny profile and the women will come to you.
But that is not the point I see in online dating. Online dating shall in my view replace the chance encounters, the host of the parties, the finding out about commonalities by going to the same sports event etc. Having a picture and some basic data will enable you to find some stuff to talk about - afterwards people will probably tend to 'take it offline' anyway for all the reasons you gave.
I would take a look at OK Cupid, if you haven't. The other dating sites like Match or eHarmony seem very "find your future husband or wife" oriented. The other end of the scale, AdultFriendFinder or even the Onion / Nerve personals are very ghetto/spammy and seem to be best suited for ugly people into weird sex stuff, or actual prostitutes.
OK Cupid has worked out very well for me in finding people who just want to go out on a few dates and have fun without the pretense of sizing me up for marriage or whether or not I'll fit into a harness in the dungeon.
If there was an iPhone app for OkCupid it would be nearly perfect. (for actual "dating.")
On the flip side, Facebook & Friendster started out as surreptitious dating sites. People went on there to figure out who among their friend's friends were cute enough to date.
I've been told (by a english female friend) that its quite successful in the UK, can anyone else confirm this?
My understanding is that it's the amateur matchmakers heaven. For friends who like to meddle in the affairs of others (eg, the female population) - which is how you also attract males to the site.
I am new to HN, but Paul Graham had dating on his "ideas" list for startups he would like to fund, so I thought HN might be a good place to discuss it.
On the dating-as-sales-generator, Mrs Browl keeps telling me to set up 'forgetfulguy.com' so you can put info about your significant other and it will remind you to buy flowers and so forth. Maybe she's trying to tell me something...
That said, I think yours falls within the spirit of Ask HN. Others considering doing so should contribute more before such a post to get a feel for what works an what doesn't.
I think a better rough policy there is people who regularly blog shouldnt self-post every story :D
One reason I like HN is the community doesnt seem to care much about shameless self promotion or casual self posting so long as it is interesting :D
A couple thoughts:
People do pay to get into a certain building to meet other single people (I'm thinking about nightclubs and bars that have cover charges here).
Also, your point about people mostly meeting partners through friends is valid but the REAL question is does it happen this way becasue that's the 'best' way to meet somebody or becasue it's currently one of the biggest ways humans meet new people? In other words, does it work this way becasue this way works best, or does it work this way because it just happens to provide the most chances?
That being said, your assessment of the problem is solid. It's an idea worth honing in on. The one thing you'd want to be able to hang onto from the "walled garden" sites is the fact that everyone there has expressed interest and availability for a dating relationship. This lowers the risk for those who do the asking since you are less likely to get rebuffed in the "EW, I'm dating already, thank you very much creepo!" sort of way.
Great point about the most efficient way to meet a partner! This is indeed a great question one should ask oneself. I see a problem with that approach though: I guess many people don't want to mix 'efficiency' with dating and human interactions and emotions too much. It's probably socially accepted to use dating sites, but are we already on our way to rethink our entire approach to dating?
The expression of interest is indeed a good concept to hang on to. Which is why social networks are especially suitable for adding dating - you can add a simple "are you open to dating approaches?"-setting.
At first I thought that maybe your idea subverts the role of the intermediate players in our lives. (The people who go "Hey, I know this person you should me, let me introduce you.") But what if you actually allowed that to happen in the social 'net? Do you think it would be handy if you could anonymously suggest to friend A and Friend B that they connect if they don't know each other?
Is it in them playing cupid or is it in them being a trustee? Why do people who are introduced to each other go along and talk to the other one - is it because they are interested in a stranger or because they trust the intermediate player?
I tend to think it's the latter which is why anonymous suggestions may not work. What do you think?
I know many people that still frown upon and feel uneasy about digital hookups. It might be useful to investigate ways of reaching these people. Maybe like a dating site in disguise?
I don't know if you quite understand the colloquialism "being on the pull"
That is the entire point of going into a nightclub/pub in this scenario, to meet people.
All of the ingredients are there - a gathering of people and social lubrication (alcohol)... perfect for the dating scenario.
That's why there's an entire industry around picking up in bars/clubs.
Male perspective - bars + clubs = casual sex*
Female perspective - bars + clubs = for dating*
*There will obviously be outliers in both cases, but that's generally how it plays out.
That's why people give up on singles bars, except for guys who are hot or slick enough to get laid and the girls who are actually looking for sex and not a boyfriend (or who think that having one-night stands is a good way of looking for a boyfriend.) Most guys are disillusioned when they figure out they're not getting sex, just phone numbers from girls who look a lot less interesting in sunlight and sobriety. Most girls are disillusioned when they figure out that the only way to get any attention is to act like they're in the mood to put out if they meet the right guy. Both sexes are disillusioned when they realize they want their sexuality to be an integral part of who they are, not an entirely separate aspect of their personality, an inner douchebag/hoebag that comes out at night and does embarrassing, tasteless things.
In Australia, we generally don't distinguish between singles bars and regular ones - in fact, I don't think I can actually name any place that would be qualified by anyone I know as a "singles bar"
Essentially, if you're single and your out in a club/pub here in the great land of Oz, your free game.
At the places I go to, most of the hooking up happens between people who had a prior connection, who met elsewhere or who met at the bar through common friends. Australian bars sound like more fun.
But you mentioned the pick-up artist community, and they are focused on sex, not relationships. It seemed to me you missed the parent post's innuendo.
No profiles, no matchmaking tests. We built the site to be inherently social and group oriented. We make no claims about 'finding love' or 'finding a soulmate', our site is optimized to make introductions between like people, help them set up a meeting, and then get out of the way.
Basically, we create small local groups of similar people an d then lead them through a guided introduction process that lasts a week. At the end of the week we help people connect and plan a meeting. Check us out.
Someone may argue that the search should be restricted to facebook ppl with "looking for guys/girls" checked in their profile, but in my experience almost noone checks those for fear of looking desperate to their other friends.
Tthis is why social networks are especially suitable for adding dating - you can add a simple "are you open to dating approaches?"-setting, which is hidden from view; a private setting used only for the dating functionality of the social network. Do you think that would help?
Dating is a really really touchy subject when there are friends in the mix as well. That's the great thing about dating sites, they are completely removed from the rest of your social life.
I work for <insert really large internet company here>, and our dating site's user namespace is completely removed from the rest of the social sphere we've developed over our other properties, because in almost all cases, users don't want anything they do regarding online dating to be mixed with what they do elsewhere (This also applies to our online job site).
The creator (or so) once told in an interview that people feel connected when playing this game successfully together.
We lead a group of local singles through a guided introduction process where we pose a question each day. Everyone answers and can then rate and comment on all the other group members answers.
And we also allow you to signup with Facebook Connect.
Making one cross network might not work so well: I wouldnt really see it working for, say, linkedin (too business oriented), Twitter (lack of info), Myspace (too young a crowd). Facebook would probably tend to be the target for this model.
Actually, certain kinds of dating work exactly like this, and translate well to the online model. It's just that most people don't want to live that way.
The point is is to have a weird excuse to interact briefly. Just by a brief encounter one can know if that person is his/her type.
"How it[real life] certainly doesn’t work is by going into a predefined building - sometimes even with an access fee - and only finding potential partners in there."
Sounds like the writer has never gone clubbing before ...
In other news, the writer has never used MySpace either (before it got hijacked by spammers)