Paul Buchheit: Did anyone else notice that TechStars and Y-Combinator have the same application? | Hacker News Reader

Paul Buchheit: Did anyone else notice that TechStars and Y-Combinator have the same application?

paulbuchheit.blogspot.com

25 pointspaul44 comments

Techstars is a clear second to Y Combinator. But there's nothing wrong it. They have a solid program lined up. Yes, the application is completely plagiarized. PG, did they ask permission or did they just do it?

Regardless, the YC application is pretty much perfect for this type of program, so I can understand that they didn't want to mess with something that worked. Plagiarism is a high form of flattery. The three or four changed or new questions make the TS application worse than the YC one, they shouldn't have bothered.

A venture capitalist is one of the founders of TS -- PG sees that as a negative but it could make it easier to get money from a friendly venture capitalist or provide insight into the notoriously obtuse mind of a VC.

TS also has more than one session a week. I see that additional structure as a good thing but I'm sure PG would argue that it's taking time away from hacking.

The website of each company certainly shows a difference in mentality -- YC is stylized minimalism, TS is over the top web design you get when you pay someone too much to design you a site.

So what should you do? Apply to both. Don't sell yourself short. Boulder's a nice city. So is Boston (even though the trains don't run past midnight).

I tend to see a VC being in charge as a negative as well. I won't get all Olin Shivers on you, but VCs are not your buddies by profession. Getting money from a VC isn't a favor, it's a business transaction.

Well, it's an atypical VC, as policy his firm does funding rounds of $100,000 and greater up to a more standard 5 million.

Don't get me wrong, he's one of my favorite VCs, but still, it's a little concerning.

Money is money; whoever has it, has it. Resources and opportunities aside, YC money is also a business transaction. Whatever the source of the money, you just work hella hard and do your part.

No, of course they didn't ask permission to copy the application form. And it's not just the application form. Reading their site is a freaky experience, because I keep coming across bits and pieces of my own thoughts, and even idioms.

I'm a bit indignant about the whole operation, actually. I feel like J. K. Rowling would feel if she came across a book that was set at a boarding school for kids with magical powers, with a hero called Henry Potter, who lived with his disagreeable non-magical ("moggle") step-parents, his own parents having been killed by the evil Valdemort...

Perhaps the time has come for a startup that starts startups that start startups.

A half-assed program will likely yield half-ass results.

Paul, the Henry Potter reaction is understandable... this certainly could be interpreted as blatant plagiarism of your ideas. But the other way to read it is as a validation of the vision behind YC. The new model for startup investment that you all have pioneered is clearly in line with the current trajectory of innovation on the internet. You figured it out first -- everyone reading this knows that -- and it almost seems like it'd be MORE worrisome if other investors didn't jump on the same bandwagon right about now.

I mean, at the end of the day, "who's committed and who's merely involved?" -- as Dharmesh put it -- is a pretty damn important thing to know when making the decision to invest in a team. Is it that surprising that other investors are asking the same question?

Point is, techstars just proves that you guys are on to something. And, considering the growing buzz around YC -- not to mention the rockstars who post here at news.yc, speak at your events, and contributed to Jessica's book -- well, seems like Harry Potter's got a pretty serious first-mover advantage. =)

Even as someone that rejects intellectual property as invalid, I suppose I can understand why you are displeased.

However, as for your example, why would anyone buy such a book unless it explored new stories or otherwise filled a void in the market?

My guess is that we're about to see more YC "copycats" popping up. YC is turning down hundreds of applicants each round, Techstars has at least a couple of hundred applicants for their first round, and those numbers are only going to grow as word spreads about these types of opportunities. Entrepreneurial minds aren't only coming from Boston and the Bay area (and other startup hubs), and they're looking for new opportunities. So, there seems to be a growing market for businesses wanting to help start startups. I think this is pretty exciting.

The book analogy falls apart here, because only a limited number of people are accepted to YC or TS, while a (practically) unlimited number of people can read Harry Potter. The existence of two YC-like programs doesn't significantly decrease the amount of interest per program, especially since you can apply to both. It does, however, significantly increase (approx double) the number of entrepreneurs funded, and the competition may encourage YC to improve its program further.

As for your book example comment, if somebody wrote Henry Potter, I imagine lots of people would read it. The story in each new Harry Potter book isn't new and exciting either... it's the same story, new details. Also, just because Harry Potter was the most popular series with that story line doesn't mean there's no demand for other similar books.

We don't accept a fixed number of applicants. We'll fund anyone who seems good enough. If we suddenly got 30 great applications, we''d accept them all, and worry later about how to cram them all into our space.

personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable telling my ideas to people who copy others so obviously. maybe they hoped nobody would see?! or make it easy for those submitting to YC?

but news.YC is building a community and others seems to missed the train on that..

"I wouldn't feel comfortable telling my ideas to people who copy others so obviously. maybe they hoped nobody would see?!"

Or maybe they've internalized the idea that ideas aren't the important part of most startups, and it didn't occur to them that people might see it as a negative.

I haven't applied (yet) to either, due to age (33) and a mortgage, but I'm still thinking about it. :)

heh heh! now do you see why I have been scared of people copying my software?

I thought that you'd be chaffed at being copied.

They should've called it SKI-combinator.

I think TechStars made three mistakes:

1. Low publicity.

2. Asked too many questions (i.e. what does it mean to be an entrepreneur?)

3. Deadline too soon.

They should've kept the deadline for applications at April 12th since by that time, all YC applicants will know if they have been accepted/rejected. The rejected ones could then apply at TechStars. This is not necessarily a bad thing since YC only picks 15 teams, while leaving a big pool of other great startup ideas and founders behind.

I have had phone conversations with numerous entrepreneurs on news.yc, and almost all of them plan on applying to TechStars while keeping YC as their first option.

TechStars could have, for marketing purposes, used aikido strategy and turn Y-Combinator's strength into weakness: since TechStars is new, they could've claimed that they place greater focus on the startups they fund as a way to prove their model superior to YC. A lot of people would've bought into that argument.

Having competition actually validates Y-Combinator's business model. While two similar programs may not be good for either parties, it is definitely good for the prospective founders.

From their point of view, it makes sense that they don't position themselves as a second choice. Why would they want to defer to YC instead of at least having a crack at the applicants accepted to YC, perhaps offering them better terms?

It's great that support for young entrepreneurs is expanding. The entrepreneurial world is a brutal one and you want as many people on your side as possible.

Because I live in Colorado (but go to college in Austin), I'm surprised I hadn't heard about this before -- despite it launching about 4 months ago. Boulder is an awesome town, and you have the Rocky Mountains all around.

Regardless of the detrimental effect the attraction of nearby ski resorts could have on a startup (which also makes it a great place to live), I feel that Denver's/Boulder's weakness is that there aren't universities with better computer science programs. All the major startup hubs have excellent universities nearby whose talent they can feed off of:

Cambridge: MIT, Harvard Silicon Valley: Stanford, Berkeley Seattle: University of Washington Austin: University of Texas

(Darn -- After visiting PG's website, I realize I am re-iterating what he says this in his essay, "How To Be Silicon Valley.")

I can see this first-hand, attending the University of Texas. I've interviewed with many startups, and you can see how they're student quality is evident in the company's work.

I would imagine this is true even moreso in the better CS programs like MIT and Stanford, and double that with towns that have two great programs.

I have been following Brad Feld's blog longer than any other blog. For sure TechStar has a solid lineup and I am sure the entrepreneur pool is larger than what YCombinator and TechStar can support together meaning there shouldn't be any lunch stealing between the two.

My biggest problem at the moment with TechStar is their 5% non-negotiable valuation. I understand they want to keep it simple and totally respect that. But that does not take away the unfairness of things when you give the same valuation to a start-up that is already operating and a start-up that is only an idea. I am sure going forward they will adjust that.

-Zaid

Is there something you like particularly about his web log or other reason you have been following it?

For reference here is where he introduces TechStars: http://www.feld.com/blog/archives/002136.html

Does anyone know what programs besides YC he is talking about?

There was this traditional VC firm that started something modled after YCombinator. But even then, they required a business plan and fund minimum 250,000 so they must be targeting another audience than YCombinator. They were featured in Wall St Journal along with quotes from Paul Graham too if I remember right.

I came across Brad's blog while reading a post where he stresses good UI. Since then I have found to enjoy his insights though at the moment I would say Brad's askthevc.com is a more useful read than feld.com

Elfan, perhaps you are referring to Charles River Ventures' $100K Quick Start Program:

http://www.crv.com/AboutCRV/QuickStart.html

In my opinion, nothing comes close to YC's model.

I think YC was bound to attract clones, although I don't think it was bound to attract clones quite this clonelike. YC has created a new investment stage, and a new niche for investment companies (which is to say, the seed-funding-plus-advice niche), and I don't think it's particularly surprising that there are more companies entering that market. I would bet that YC is going to be a bit like the Sequoia of seed/advice firms, and that most other such firms will enter the market because they see YC's success, fail to make money, but continue to operate, much like most VCs don't make money.

From their app: "What does entrepreneurship mean to you?"

Seriously? Does TechStars come with a free team building retreat?

That was one of the three questions they didn't copy from ours.

Hmm. I'm not at all sure that 'entrepreneurship' is a real word.

I guess times are tough. What did Hunter S Thomson used to say... "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

Brad Feld, the all knowing VC prophet, left Mobius Capital after Mobius cratered and now he's trolling for scraps with "borrowed" equipment. He used to do deals for millions and now he's throwing $10Ks around. Sad.

http://valleywag.com/tech/brad-feld/feld-folds-vc-blogger-brad-feld-goes-silent-199802.php

May be you should do your homework. Brad's pretty heavily invested in potential hits such as FeedBurner and TechStar is led by David Cohen and is more of a side thing(it appears) for Brad.

I am personally biased in favor of people who take time to reply to strangers seeking advice. Paul Graham, Brad Feld, Seth Godin and few others are great examples of folks you can write to and expect some valuable words of wisdom in return.

Having to listen to all those speakers would be extremely annoying. If you aren't intellectually curious enough to read through all the books and blogs written on these subjects on your own, then you're probably the kind of person who should be working for someone else. There is a reason why so many entrepreneurs drop out of school...

Plus, their website makes them look really creepy.

A group of people who copied someone else's funding idea verbatim are supposed to be good at picking original ideas?

Despite Techstars' copying of YC's approach, it definitely is an appreciation of YC as a viable business model. And it is a great thing for student entrepreneurs unless, as people may suggest, a VC-run YC copycat do entrepreneurs more harm than good.

ok here is a problem:

Say you have a great idea (don't we all :))

But we don't know if either TechStars or Y-Combinator will actually accept our idea so to hedge our bets we apply to both. (of course YC is first option).

Now TechStars will send their results on Apr 5 and the deadline to accept, I think is Apr14 . This is before the Apr22 date when YC decides which companies it will fund.

So on Apr14: if you are one of the really good ideas that both TechStars and YC like - because of the timeline - you get into a dilema: if u say no to TechStars there is no guarantee that YC will accept u but if u say yes to TechStars - then u give up on your first choice without even getting a chance to hear the YC results.

Seems like a cunning way for TechStars to get all the best ideas this summer before YC can get them. (I bet they try to pull this off every six months to try and steal all the best ideas...)

So, YC needs think about how to solve this potential issue - (maybe bringin the dates of their decisions??)

I think this is going to backfire. Some of the start-ups they want will say no just because they are waiting on YC, then when YC turns them down, TS will have missed out on one of their top choices who now will have to seek a THIRD source of funding.

Smart money is for that third VC to pick up YC's 9th through 16th choices, and any of TS's top 8 that turned them down waiting on a YC acceptance that never came through.

TechStars almost sounds too good to be true. What's the catch?

There's no catch. You can do this!

Is that a quote from their site?

Yes, it's on their FAQ.

Yes. I didn't want to just dismiss these guys, it looks like they are new, going through some growing pains, and trying something interesting. However, the mix of Y Combinator hacker talk with bright flashy graphics is just disconcerting. That quote was the most over the top part of the site.

I look forward to seeing in the future to see if they can evolve into a niche besides YC or decide to directly compete.

I agree the site is way over the top and disconcerting. When I loaded the main page it just felt like they were trying way too hard to sell me something. It looks more like an ad for the 4th of July sale at Macy's than a startup funder. Either that or an ad for Citizen's bank, I cant' decide. It's a stark contrast with the YC site, where you have to read a bit to figure out what's going on. I don't think they need to be worried about getting people to apply, they're giving out free money after all...

"Over 30 of the best entrepreneurial minds in Colorado" seems like a lot (especially for Colorado). Is this an educational experience or capitalist enterprise for the founders?

Yes which was odd. Their video was also rather scary. They do have a few interesting people involved in the project.

I wonder what the odds are of a TechStar startup competing with a YC startup? That could be interesting.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com