Let's rally for Lavabit to fight for the privacy rights of the American people | Hacker News Reader

Let's rally for Lavabit to fight for the privacy rights of the American people

rally.org

190 pointswelder30 comments

Strategically Ladar's fight seems like a good thing for all of us, but in general I am bothered by the focus on "the American people", and the idea of political fixes based on the US constitution. I hope that HN type people are thinking strategically about the big picture and not seeking to promote the rights of a minority, potentially at the expense of the rest of us. I can't really tell though.

You're right... however I can certainly imagine every country of means jumping on the surveillance bandwagon if they haven't already.

At least the US has a constitution that forbids this. It's a good time to take a stand. It won't be solved globally, but piece by piece.

The question that the wording of the appeal raises in my mind is: if the warrant first presented to Lavabit related to a non-US citizen who was using the service, would Mr Levison have followed the same course of action?

I think so, how could you sell a security service with a backdoor only for foreigners? Doesn't make sense from a technical point of view.

Also, it doesn't seem that he had a problem with warrants, just opening it for everyone at once.

As a European I do indeed find this troubling. I know that "everyone does this", and "this is how it's always been", but morally speaking whether a person is a citizen of one country or another has no impact on whether it is justified to spy on them. As a collective society humanity has to grow up and leave this stuff behind.

Fundamentally these problems trace back to the nation state, which itself is an inherently discriminatory instrument. It assigns special privileges to people based on where they were born. If we as a species believe that everyone should have access to equal rights and equal opportunities, then there can be no international borders arbitarily cutting up the landscape of rights and opportunities. The nation state was a tool that was useful in humanity's adolescence, but we have to leave it behind if we ever want to grow up.

Not that any of that is easy, but just because something is hard doesn't mean it isn't necessary.

Lavabit is operating under the US law and Ladar's fight is with the US government. The focus on American people and US constitution is a single viable path to constructively battle the unlawful demands.

If it is ruled that Lavabit can not be extorted for private data of its users, it's a win for any user out there.

On a side note, I feel saddened that this event does not attract more attention. More so, you happen to see people scrutinize Lavabit and pick on various details of this case.

But think about it. Lavabit is, to my knowledge, the only company that took an open stand for its users and went so far as to shut down its service to protect users private data.

Somehow, it's not exciting enough for many. Instead, the recent news of the "Google Ad Designer" got almost 1k points and spent more than a day on the front page. Same company who sold its users quietly, without a single word. Who could have also taken a stand and even shut down GMail, if they had enough guts and moral integrity. Imagine the social impact of this move. It could have very well turn the tide. Yet, the only action they took is one press release to deny any allegations and one motion to allow for full FISA orders statistics be published. A minor, but very laud public stunt.

It seems like the greatest fear of Snowden is coming to live. People forget and move on.

Those who fight for our rights become outcasts. Those who exploit them become our heroes.

Just donated some more at https://rally.org/lavabit.

Godspeed Ladar. You're an inspiration to us all.

Amen.

I'll admit to glancing woefully at my purse-strings, then tightening them the last time I saw Lavabit's defense fund.

Between the EFF, ACLU, and other organizations I have suddenly have found great cause to donate to, I didn't feel like I was ready then.

Now that most of the full story is out, I read it, laughed out at Ladar's shear balls, and donated, deciding to skip some meals to make the budget meet if necessary.

I mean, that 4 point text ploy is straight out of a smart-ass-high-school-student's attempt to cram as much as possible on his "1 index card allowed" cram-sheet.

Within a month, Lavabit still had not complied to the court's satisfaction—in fact he handed over pages of the key typed in 4-point font—and Levison was ordered to pay a $5,000 fine for each day he did not comply. On August 8, he shuttered Lavabit entirely, destroying the company’s servers.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/lavabit-defied-or...

just in case you're wondering (I was)

He should have done it in Wingdings too

"sheer"?..."shear balls" just sounds painful

You are of course correct.

winces

In his defense, that was actually the government's idea in a way. The documents in the wired article ordered him to physically bring the keys to the court, and only if he was unable to, he could provide it as an electronic copy. He gave them something as stupid as what they asked for.

Donated.

Normally I'm hesitant to post one word comments like that, but in this case showing your donation breaks conformity behavior in large anonymous groups like the innocent bystander effect.

Well i've decided to donate a little for the good cause BUT i also don't like the "American" word in the title.

It seems to be a typical American thing to state it like this (i read it in many news articles about the mass surveillence topic) and I find it very repulsive because it somehow states "we, the Americans, are superior". That's a disgusting thing to say about oneself in my opinion.

"Let's rally for Lavabit to fight for the privacy rights of the people on the internet"...

I donated earlier tonight. I am thinking I will send a matching donation to the EFF as well.

It just feels so juvenile — first he doesn't comply, then he says he'll comply, then he refuses to comply, then he's ordered to show cause and represents himself (!), then he prints out the encryption key in 4-point font in a clearly noncompliant gesture.

Yes, there are privacy issues at stake, but there's a much more mature and reasonable to way to conduct oneself than it seems like he has.

Why should he?

Maturity against the absurd only leads to more suffering. You had better become a clown when youhr enemy is all-powerful. At least you will have your laughs and make them uncertain of the outcome.

Read "the trial" and for a real-life account, "the diary of happiness", by N. Steinhardt. (http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/83642874)

Suppose you're a typical nerd who lives buried in software all day long with relatively little contact with the big bad world. (Need any more proof of Levison's nerdiness? Lavabit used to be called Nerdshack. By the way, I don't mean anything negative by "nerd".) All of a sudden, you find yourself in the middle of the Snowden controversy, with a very real possibility of going to prison. You don't have much money, either. You don't know what to do. Under such circumstances, are you sure you would respond any more "maturely" than Ladar Levison did?

Levison made mistakes. Today's Wired article makes that clear. He was probably scared and confused. He should have sought legal counsel as soon as he received that first court order, preferably by calling EFF right away, but for some reason he didn't seem to have done so. His failure to work with a competent attorney (or maybe he ignored good legal counsel) probably caused more damage than what was strictly necessary.

But what happened, happened. What matters is what's going to happen next. If we're willing to stand up for a child pornographer's right to keep his hard drive encrypted, I think we should forgive Levison for his confusion as well. Thanks to his blunders, the case has now blown up into something completely different: for example, the Government's right to require the disclosure of SSL keys.

Way to be condescending about it dude.

Only the American people?

Anyone can donate, this isn't running for political office. It is a legal fund.

Maybe the question is, why would I donate to fight for the privacy rights of a small minority of the world's population (which as it happens doesn't include me)? Potentially, the answer is that by making it harder for the NSA to spy on Americans we make it harder for the NSA to spy on the rest of us. The concern is that focusing on US political / legal fixes potentially still leaves the majority of us vulnerable to mass surveillance. I haven't seen as much exploration of this question as it seems like there ought to be.

At least, the Americans should fix their constitution to say that their institutions ain't allowed to spy on any human without proper judical oversight. Otherwise, as you, I don't care about their legal system.

That is actually what the constitution says. The US government should get warrant when spying on anyone regardless of who they are or where they are. The limitations are placed on the government, not the other way around.

It is only by legal convention that the US government does warrantless spying on non US citizens and gets away with it.

To clarify: I have no problem donating to fight for civil rights in the US. I know they affect me and there is not much else I can do as a European to change US policy. I do have a problem though with framing the debate as "privacy for the American people", that may be a good cause, but it is a domestic cause. I'd much prefer if this were framed as a global one. (And I'm sure Lavabit had international customers.)

proud to help fight the good fight Ladar - thank you for standing your ground!

donated - lets give this guy some help

I assume by American you mean USAian? Either way, doesn't everyone else deserve privacy too?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com