Microsoft's Surface 2 will replace paper manuals on all Delta aircraft | Hacker News Reader

Microsoft's Surface 2 will replace paper manuals on all Delta aircraft

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45 pointsjamesbritt75 comments

What's funny is Microsoft likely had to give Delta a steep discount just to get this PR win. With the iPad, companies will use it because it's a great product that people want to use, so they use it. I guess Microsoft will do what it has to do to get someone to use the Surface 2.

iPad has momentum Surface doesn't. We'll see how the surface 2 comes along.

And I bet it was also part of the deal that they had to split up the announcement of the Nokia Lumia deal for the flight attendants and this one to get maximum press cycles.

Yep you called it. See:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/09/30/delta-pilots-fough...

> "We fought hard for iPad," a pilot working for the airline told AppleInsider. He described the Delta deal as being about money, travel contracts, and Delta's Information Technology staff historically being "in bed" with Microsoft.

Read the rest of the article. It gets worse.

And here we see why Steve Jobs said at the D conference didn't like selling to companies. Microsoft is still very, very good at corporate sales.

I don't know... a single, anonymous pilot's 6 word quote followed by a lot of editorial in Apple Insider. It's not like Apple hasn't done plenty of loss leaders.

Oh? Which loss leaders, exactly?

>"Delta's Information Technology staff historically being "in bed" with Microsoft"

You do realise that Apple doesn't sell any corporate software, whereas Active Directory and other MS key server techs are a fundamental part of many company's networks. AFAIK, Apple doesn't make it exactly easy to remote manage devices - that's not their main target, while it is for Microsoft.

The deal is still probably more about PR, but it's not like IT being "in bed" with MS is anything new.

> AFAIK, Apple doesn't make it exactly easy to remote manage devices - that's not their main target, while it is for Microsoft.

Apple's MDM suite is actually pretty robust these days, and iOS 7 made it better with silent OTA installs and even more controls. Of course, that relies on a device being online (as any remote management tool would), and I'm not sure if the FAA approved the trial iPads or the Surfaces to have any kind of wireless on during flight.

Actually, if these are the Surface RT 2 and not Surface Pro 2, then I think Apple's MDM would win for remote management. Last I understood, WinRT lacked basic remote admin things like joining a domain and policies.

In what ways exactly is the iPad a very great product compared to the surface 2 (which isn't even out yet?). IMO, both have advantages over each other. In fact, I'd say it's more useful than the ipad considering that the pilots won't be using it to only watch netflix. The Surface 2 at least allows for a bit of productivity with the free office suite.

Seems like people would want to use iPad just because it was the first to enter the market and has the mind share. I'd consider this to be a good way of garnering some of that.

For this use case, there's probably not a major usability difference, but for general consumer desirability, the iPad obviously has a huge advantage.

FYI new ios devices come with apple's free office productivity software now (pages, keynote, numbers). they announced that at the iphone event a few weeks ago.

but the airlines don't want the pilots using office software, that's not what these devices are for.

the reason many pilots prefer ipad, i would guess, is because of better/easier UI conventions for ios apps and possibly a better touch screen. that would actually be relevant in the flight related apps the devices are meant for.

How good is the new Iworks on IOS. I played around with it once, and was not all that impressed. I have a Thinkpad tablet and having the real version of MS Office on a tablet that size is nice.

Note that only the iPhone 5s and 5c will receive iWork for free - all of the older devices still require the purchase of those apps. "Older" includes all 4 iPads, as far as I know.

As for better ui - I've heard very few complaints about Metro on a touchscreen. The biggest complaints I've heard are about using it with a mouse and keyboard, which isn't exactly the normal Surface 2 or iPad use case.

"Older" includes all 4 iPads

Until the new ones come out in two weeks?

I bought a new iPad mini this week. Came with iOS 6. Upgraded to iOS 7 immediately. Rebooted, was offered all iWork apps for free. Have them installed.

Well, for one, it's product that has been in the market for quite some time and has a well established reliability record.

I think I'd prefer my pilots enjoy their bit of productivity with a device other than the plane's manual.

> The Surface 2 at least allows for a bit of productivity with the free office suite.

Are you really arguing that there are no productive ways to use an ipad?

> In fact, I'd say it's more useful than the ipad considering that the pilots won't be using it to only watch netflix. The Surface 2 at least allows for a bit of productivity with the free office suite.

What? You realize you just said Pilots won't be using the pad just to watch netflix and then proceeded to applaud the free office suit for productivity, right?

In what way do you see Pilots using the office suit for productivity? I'm really interested in hearing this. Seeing as the main use for tablets is as an electronic manual for Pilots. So, all they do with it is mostly reading and referencing. Why on earth would you need a Surface for that? That is like you buying your mother a laptop with the highest specs you can find when she told you all she wants to do is write emails. Complete overkill.

Pilots have been using the iPads for quite awhile for preflight planning (and some other things). There are a lot of apps for that released by Boeing, Airbus etc. Windows platform doesn't have that.

Also, why would a pilot need the office suite in flight?

My dad is a pilot for Delta. Many of the pilots simply buy their own iPads rather than use the MS Surface provided by Delta. For Pilots, the iPad is light-years ahead of the Surface in terms of apps. It's also quite a bit ahead of android as well.

From a life-safety standpoint, it's not a big deal if a social networking app breaks when the latest OS is pushed onto a computing device. It's a bit different if the preflight checklist software for a passenger jet fails.

Microsoft B2B focus and history bending over backward for backwards compatibility gives it a clear market advantage. Having a full technology stack continuous from servers to phones doesn't hurt either.

The weakness of the iPad is that it is a thoroughly a consumer oriented product. In the long haul, it makes sense for enterprise as a BYOD option. It's a little harder to build a stable IT roadmap upon.

Totally read that as "BSOD option".

>The weakness of the iPad is that it is a thoroughly a consumer oriented product.

When it is supposed to replace paper manuals for pilots, all you need is a consumer grade tablet. Especially if it comes in a build quality like the iPad. And with the now free iWork suit it is not even exclusively a consumer device. But again, if you just use it as an alternative to paper manuals, where exactly is the need for a Surface? What feature of the Surface would be of use for the Pilots that they don't get with an iPad?

Microsoft has had a desktop monopoly for two decades (90% market share) and they see this being threatened by mobile. In a few years, mobile will evolve and many people will be happy with simply using tablet devices. If they can't make any inroads into mobile, they are going to contract quite a bit because they really only can lose desktop market share.

In addition with their Office Suite cash cow not running on iOS or Android, their earnings with be impacted even more.

Maybe Delta just wanted to issue something that no one would want to steal?

MS PR is weird, though, like all TV shows are set in this bizarro world where everyone uses a Surface and Windows Phone. I don't think people will care about this unless the pilots end up enjoying it and recommending it.

Maybe there's a more extensive deal; limited free wifi on Delta flights for Surface users? Plane-local wifi with access to movies via a Surface app?

Interestingly Delta was supposedly testing iPads for use inflight instead of paper manuals back in 2011. [1]

I wonder why they are going with the Surface now?

The US Air Force [2] and American Airlines [3] are both using iPads. I'd be really interested in seeing why Delta decided to go with the Surface, unless it is something as simple as Microsoft is giving Delta a massive discount in exchange for the PR boost to try to catch up with the iPads adoption by other airlines and by the army.

[1] http://www.padgadget.com/2011/03/07/delta-air-lines-alaska-a...

[2] http://www.geekwire.com/2013/air-force-deploying-18000-ipads...

[3] http://www.dailytech.com/American+Airlines+Wins+FAA+Approval...

Edit: Another comment linked to an Apple Insider article which says that the Surface deal was "about money, travel contracts, and Delta's Information Technology staff historically being "in bed" with Microsoft."

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/09/30/delta-pilots-fough...

Interestingly Delta was supposedly testing iPads for use inflight instead of paper manuals back in 2011.

I believe that at the time the iPad was the only FAA-approved Electronic Flight Bag.

I worked on this one for a little while:

http://www.astronautics.com/index.php?q=content/electronic-f...

I have trouble imagining either the iPad or the Surface being used for anything critical.

So as it turns out, many airline companies are switching to tablets. My girlfriend's father is a pilot for South West and currently in their beta program. He used to carry 10LBs of binders in a big leather briefcase, but that's all been moved onto the ipad. He loves it!

Do they have to turn it off during takeoff and landing?

Article talks about its usage during "all phases of flight" so I guess they will use it all the time.

I don't know why this isn't integrated into the instrument panel. That way, it's always there, always ready to go, and isn't going to bounce around the cockpit.

Things that get integrated into the cockpit tend to be hard to change and have long legacy lifetimes. If you ever want to gouge your eyes out for an evening, peruse the spec for CADRG, which is the file format used by military cockpit in flight displays:

http://earth-info.nga.mil/publications/specs/printed/89038/8...

It's a format designed for ultra-fast decoding, but it's not widely supported and a real mess under the hood.

There's some advantage to having things in the pilots hands if the technology is improving rapidly.

If there's any chance you'll be dealing with problems more than a foot away from the instrument panel, you'll want a manual you can carry around.

I know with books in my car, I have to always search for them. They wind up everywhere - in the glove box, under the seat, in the way of the pedals, etc. Then, there's "oops, I forgot to bring it", "I forgot to bring the charger cable", where is the danged charger cable, the charger cable gets in the way, etc.

And, airliners can sometimes be involved in fairly violent maneuvers, including upside down. To you really want to be hit in the head by a tablet?

Lastly, most of the size & weight of a tablet is the battery. Putting it in the instrument panel dispenses with that.

If your airliner's upside down, a shifting tablet is the least of your worries.

Are regulations more stringent for things that are attached or built into the aircraft?

So the instrument panel contains essentials, but lacks company specific procedures. For example: Each airline has a different 'start up' procedures for their planes, even the planes they all have, like the 737. It also lacks the thousands of pages of documentation and instructional manuals that are often never used, but required to have.

Those documents can get to be +7MB at times, which isn't great if there's no wifi or spotty 3G access. The reason you need internet is because the handbooks are changing constantly, and there are lots of them.

What they are adding, at least South West, is a place to mount your tablet in the cockpit, and it's pretty nice how it's positioned (I'd have to ask my gf's dad for the picture he showed me).

All in all, it's a great move, and I've heard great feedback from pilots using them.

Why would updating the manuals be a problem if it was in the instrument panel? Heck, you could even have the documents on an SD card the pilot just plugs in. Or the ground crew could be responsible for keeping it up to date. I just don't see the problem.

Interesting but I am not sure if it is a good idea replacing paper manuals with electronic devices. How useful are these manuals during an emergency? What if the device starts glitching or is low on battery? How much interference can these devices cause, given the current rule is to switch off all electronic devices during takeoff and landing? Would they be put on "Airplane Mode"?

I read on the recent story about FAA regulations that current cockpit iPads are on all the time during takeoff and landing, although I suspect they'll be in airplane mode whenever they're on the plane.

Presumably in case of an emergency, the pilot would always be able to call the control tower to confirm whatever details, even if their tablet was dead, so I don't think it would be a major issue.

1) I believe that finding anything on a digital device is quicker in an emergency than looking it up on 38 pound pile of paper;

2) To prevent failures, take a redundant secondary device (anyways, each co-pilot would/should have one).

3) "Airplane mode" would be perfectly fine, as the device should store all manuals locally anyways, and need a connection only to be updated with newest content.

Personally, I'd say that something like a Kindle would be better than the Surface for this particular task.

I hope you mean kindle fire, because the base kindle would be too slow to anyone to quickly flip through the pages.

Devices don't cause much interference with these machines, same as hospitals. Doctors always have their phones on. Within about 1 metre might cause some interference. Maybe.

I heard that the reason they tell you to turn it off in flight is so that if something goes wrong people panic less. Not sure how true that is though.

AFAIK, Most of these procedures are to be learned by the pilots prior to being certified to pilot a particular aircraft.

IF something went wrong, however, like a pilot panics, or his tablet dies (and forgot his charger), he is still able to radio for help.

I believe the bulk of what goes on the tablet is tons and tons of charts. Airport layouts, maps, etc.

On the contrary, written checklists are gone through even for routine tasks, e.g., every takeoff and every landing.

When there is more than one pilot, the pilot not flying the plane usually reads the checklist out loud.

But in an emergency there are checklists made up of "memory items" which are tested every year at recurrent training.

Serious question, as I haven't used Windows in years: How reliable are these things (the current generation of Surface)? On an aircraft, a BSOD could have a literal meaning.

Just my n=1, but I think I've only had one BSOD since Windows 7 came out (and literally none running Vista, before that, for what it's worth). I have a Surface RT and Pro also, and neither of those have ever crashed. I saw a screenshot of the new Windows 8 BSOD somewhere a while back, but I've never seen it myself even though I run it on several devices.

my ipad crashes more than my windows desktop

Windows itself virtually never crashes. The only thing that'll cause a 2005+ system to crash is hardware failure, or a hardware driver failure/bug. I have a 2010 laptop I use daily that's not once BSOD'd. My Surface Pro has never BSOD'd. My older desktop has, but the message has always been related to the graphics driver, and I sometimes have to reseat the card to get it to boot, so it's probably a physical world problem.

And in fact, with Vista/7 they changed the way the graphic drivers work. I've had my GPU card crash several times, and all I got was a blank screen for a few seconds, followed by a notice that the video driver died and restarted. Sometimes it might flip into "basic" mode after that. Before, such a problem would have been a BSOD.

And when the tablet crashes and won't boot up? Sounds like a safety issue to me...

No more of a safety issue than using iPads.

Which seems like equally a bad idea unless you've got the paper manuals right there as well.

Let's give Delta the benefit of the doubt here and assume the paper copies will still be on board, but the primary source will be the Surface 2.

The article mentions the cost savings from replacing the very heavy manuals, so I would assume not.

One paper copy per plane instead of one per pilot? Thinner, less durable paper that doesn't have to survive daily use? Guessing.

Let's say instead of 40 lbs of books they carry 2 tablets (3lbs).

If I needed to look up a phone number and had a choice of a tablet or a paper phonebook, and the tablet crashed... I'd wait for the tablet to reboot and look it up on the tablet.

This appears to be the software doing all the work http://ww1.jeppesen.com/aviation/products/flitedeck-pro/inde...

Which is available for both iOS and Windows.

I think everyone is over-thinking this: Delta probably received bids with some simple requirements (screen size, resolution, PDF/document capabilities, battery life, etc.)

Microsoft strikes discounted price deal coupling it as a marketing opportunity. Why WOULDN'T Delta use the Surface if they can get it for significantly cheaper than other alternatives, plus it still has the ability to be expanded in the future (automatically file syncing, user permissions, communication, etc.)

iPad's been doing this for years; what's the news? Deep discounts for a design win?

Right - where by 'for years' you mean "was approved for Flight Deck use by the FAA at the end of 2011?

"They've been doing it for year!"

Replacing flight bags with tablets is a prime use case for technology. Eliminate the weight, the replacement pages, the distribution expense. Push digital documents and poof pilots have the latest data.

Why not use something based on an e-ink display?

Wild guess: color support.

Well, at least MSFT finally found somewhere to put all those unpurchased Surfi.

> javajosh 4 minutes ago | link | parent | flag

> Well, at least MSFT finally found somewhere to put all those unpurchased Surfi

All those unsold Surface 1 tablets?

> Microsoft's Surface 2 will replace paper manuals on all Delta aircraft

Pray tell where those unsold Surface 1 tablets are going.

I imagine they'll be buried in the desert next to all those CueCats, Atari 'E.T.' cartridges, and assorted drums of low-level nuclear waste.

Delta Connection flights?

Did some ex-microsoft executive joined Delta as CEO ?

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