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Comment by re1ser | Hacker News Reader

You can't compare income from FL between 1st and 3rd world countries. I know for a fact that some of countries don't have other choice but to do FL business over various semi-shady sites like Freelancer, Elance, oDesk, Guru, etc, where it is incredibly hard to generate >$20k/year income.

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"2nd world" (Eastern Europe) freelancer here - it really depends what things you work on, even on Elance, oDesk etc. It's not that hard to generate >20k, of course if you know what you're doing. oDesk clients brought me >40k this year, most jobs north of 5k (I do mobile apps). There's of course a lot of crap job postings there, but once you get a minimal reputation, you don't even look at those "make website for a peanut" contests. Of course rates are well below those that American developers usually get, but really not <20k year, at least when you work full-time.

I worked on oDesk from Mumbai for a while making ~50k/year. It was surreal.

could I ask what kind of services/technologies you were offering?

With this kind of income you can make a very decent living in India.

$50k in India won't get you far in Mumbai, especially if you are married and have kids

Have you lived there? It's not that expensive. Primary costs would be rentals. And they fall exponentially as you move away from Nariman Point (city center)

Depends on your lifestyle. You can live comfortably with a small amount, but if you have personal preferences (like having a smartphone, Macbook air, skiing in winter, and a good car) the location won't really matter much.

That's a little more than 2.5 lakhs a month. There is no part of India where you can't live comfortably in that much money.

Bear in mind that living in Mumbai doesn't mean living in Pali Hill. The suburbs are significantly cheaper.

and if you don't have to commute it's relatively attractive not to live in the city centre.

That is great money for India.

Well, it is hard but not "incredibly" hard. Not all clients there are bottom feeders, even though the majority probably are. Even then, it still definitely beats being an employee on a fixed salary in most "developed" countries. Someone told me that the average programmer in Poland makes 800 EUR/month. That doesn't sound spectacular either ;-)

In Portugal the minimum wage is currently 485€ per month, before taxes.

With a degree one usually one starts at around 1000€ per month and grows from there.

You have to be already quite senior to even dream of the 2000€ barrier, in a few selected companies.

However with the current economical situation, many people are quite happy if they happen to just get something.

That's funny. Up there in Lithuania 1000eur is average salary for non-senior developers. Senior developers may easily get 2000eur in a good company. Or they're not that senior. 3000eur/mo is not unheard of for really good seniors.

The main (uneducated) public is in the same spot though, with minimum wage of 290euros.

Good time for IT guys.

Strangely, this is not so different from Belarus as you would imagine.

850 EUR is average salary in Poland (before taxation). Programmers would usually get more, at least in big cities.

Programmers can make a lot more: starting at 1500 EUR (as junior developer) up to 4 000 EUR (minority of senior developers). That's also before taxation

Living expenses are presumably different though. So it's a bit hard to just compare salary directly.

They aren't anymore. I've lived both in Poland and countries in western EU, Netherlands be one example, and honestly everyday product prices are very similar. The major difference is housing although Poland is very similar to Berlin housing wise, now compare the average salaries...

Costs of living haven't been that much different for a decade or so. The only reason most businesses pay poor salaries to Polish workers is - because they can (high level of unemployment + low percentage of workers organised in trade unions + low minimum wage). Living expenses don't differ much between Warsaw and Berlin.

Programmers' wages are an exception, because - unlike most of the population - they have way out from the local labour market.

Berlin is a bit of a special case though. Living expenses are very low compared to other "rich" EU countries.

Even compared to other big cities in Germany; you won't find Berlin rental prices in Munich or Frankfurt.

What is the reason for such low living expenses in Berlin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_population2.svg

Right, world commodities such as oil only differ by government taxes or subsidies. And of course, oil is the lifeblood of any industrialized nation.

Anything imported (which is probably a lot for most nations) is going to be about the same. In the Philippines, a lot of cheap stuff gets imported from China that you may not even be able to find in the U.S. because it's total crap. So, that can opener might be cheap, but it won't last more than three cans.

Land prices is another big modifier. In the Philippines, rent is generally cheap even if the land is expensive. There might be a lot of demand for buying your land, but a business isn't going to pay you much for rent if it's having to work off margins from selling cheap products in an economy where most people are making less than $6 per day. The same goes for residential. Jack up your rent and the only people who can afford it are the top few percent and foreigners.

Where you save a ton in developing countries is on labor, which affects the prices of everything just like oil does. And then of course you have savings from services provided to you directly such as medical.

The difference is rent, and the net amount in your bank account. In SF rent will set you back ridiculous amounts, but only 50% of your pay if you're a developer at most. The same is true in London, and in Germany.

The difference is in SF 50% of your pay buys 20 ipads. In Germany, 50% pays for 4 of them.

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