Could Formula E ever rival Formula 1? | Hacker News Reader

Could Formula E ever rival Formula 1?

economist.com

40 pointskenshiro_o43 comments

"In addition, spectators will be able to interact with the cars using social media. The talk is of allowing them to award drivers extra goes on their “push-to-pass” boost buttons"

Well, that sounds wide open for abuse. Also, I am not sure how the bookies would deal with something like that when calculating the odds. "Well, this driver is better, but the other one has a huge following on twitter, so the odds are in their favour..."

"In addition, spectators will be able to interact with the cars using social media. The talk is of allowing them to award drivers extra goes on their “push-to-pass” boost buttons"

That's the most stupid thing I've heard all week. No matter how it's implemented it's silly. Fans shouldn't be able to influence the result of a race.

Oh God .. what a dumb idea. Until I got to that bit it sounded great. Whether it's FIA or someone else, if it can get a following then the innovation the teams will develop will be massive for electric cars. And that it IS FIA that's organising it, it's got a good chance of being at least very interesting.

But if you're going to let the audience VOTE on the outcome I might as well go watching survivor. Maybe they'll let us vote asshole drivers off the island?

Ideas this mindbogglingly stupid are a good reminder that the FIA, like many other wealthy pursuits, would appear to be mainly fuelled by a high octane mixture of alcohol and cocaine. I cannot see otherwise how something so dumb would have made it past a single meeting.

Yeh can you imagine Monza run under this harebrained idea remember the Martin Brundel quote " its monza if your not Italian or driving for Ferrari they tend to throw things

It is a stupid idea from a gamesmanship point of view.

But it is a brilliantly viral idea from the marketing point of view. Think of that Saturday afternoon when you have a few posts popping up on facebook and twitter "Your friend is supporting ____...", it is sure to get a bump in non-hard-core fans watching the race.

Racing is one of the few places they can do this.

It's way too open to hacking and anyway it's a racing sports not a popularity contest so I think the FIA would make a HUGE mistake in getting the crowd to determine (or influence) the outcome of the race.

From a proper pure racing POV, a horrible nasty idea, born of Satan's rectum.

Putting aside the technical / abuse angle, which is totally valid.......From a getting fan interaction and publicity idea, its not a totally bad idea. Its a bit "reality".

Now, if there is a god, he knows full well I cant stand all this "reality" and social media lark, but frankly, it is popular. FE needs to hook in to something as it needs to build a following. Its never going to appeal to the olde skool big engine and noise brigade who cant get their heads round electric at all, so it needs to get new fans interested. IMHO, that means going all youth and modern. So, things like this are a reasonable idea.

Problem I see is that this specific idea is possibly born of gray suited men in a meeting not really understanding either racing or social media. I understand the general intent, but not the currently touted solution.

Rival?

No.

Leaving aside the massive world wide following and it's deep history and legends...

What will continue to happen is that F1 will get more and more electric over time. The new regs for 2014 are for a smaller engine, supplemented by larger KERS, pushing for fuel efficiency. Long term, I see that trend continuing. Burning up shed loads of fossil fuels to merely race will get more and more difficult while normal car drivers and manufacturers have to deal with efficiency. F1 will evolve in the electric direction.

That is not to even begin to suggests FE is a waste of time or anything like that. I'm massively looking forward to it, might even allow the word "excited". Much of it will run in the F1 off season. It can run in any major world city resulting in potentially fantastic visuals. I really like that you can hear the tyres working. All you hear now is engine, and that actually doesn't tell you much about the driver. Hearing the tyres tells us a lot more. For me FE is a fascinating supplement to F1 which could or should help F1 get more electric. Both technology wise, and in the PR battle with olde skool F1 fans. It can prove electric racing works.

Equally, there are parts of FE that I don't like, but mostly they are things that will evolve and be solved over time, like the car swap thing, or PR type things like the social media voting for boosts nonsense. But the basic idea of trying to create an electric open wheel racing series is fundamentally right. I really hope it can gain enough traction to keep going.

Actually, a final thought. I might be completely wrong...

There is a chance that FE, if run and marketed right could be made to appeal to the Need for Speed generation. Run races at night. Bright lights ever where; scenery, under-lighting on the cars and all that glitz. Lots of music, and off track entertainment. Get game/software developers, ICE manufacturers, and the likes of Red Bull involved. Make it all look like a Fast and Furious race night, or X games events. Go heavy youth, apps, social media, and so on. Make sure it's on free TV with cool youth friendly presenters hyping it all up. If it gains a following from the ground up, it could become incredibly popular.

So, essentially forget F1 and F1 fans. In fact, I wonder if the mistake is the open wheel F1 look a like thing, which draws unhelpful comparisons. Maybe they'd be better off racing electric cars that at least resemble the kind of cars you can buy? Electric chassis with light bodies resembling current road cars?

Dunno. But whatever the case, Im in. I'll probably always watch F1 (not to mention many other racing series) for better or worse, but FE is very much a welcome addition for me.

"Maybe they'd be better off racing electric cars that at least resemble the kind of cars you can buy?"

I'd go for this. It could be a bit like car rallies.

The amount of gas burned at a f1 race weekend is tiny and fast and furious will only appeal to the Barry/Chav crowd

F1 has been pushing for fuel efficiency, however, costs continue to rise. It's a problem in F1.

Specialized labor, specialized materials. Teams wanting "cool factor" for support infrastructure. And driver salaries.

> There is a chance that FE, if run and marketed right could be made to appeal to the Need for Speed generation.

My god, that entire paragraph is genius, I am not particularly NSF but even I have fond memories of a few of those games and you could certainly turn it into a travelling festival of racing / gamer culture.

Frankly it's more likely that in 30 years F1 will be electric. F1 is the premier series (it's kinda in the name), FIA would just change the formula or merge the classes if F-E was on its way to dominance.

It's probably going electric eventually anyway.

Probably not. Too much money and power invested in F1, and even despite the boring Tilkedromes that have come to dominate the schedule, it'd be hard for Formula E to compete on quality of tracks. More likely, we'll see a continued progression towards increased use of hybrid systems - more powerful KERS, bigger batteries, decreased fuel tank size - which might at least cause Formula E to become a useful feeder series for drivers (perhaps if the driving style starts to become dramatically different?) and especially for engineers.

This is really interesting. But, please, drop the extra speed for the most tweeted!

Well, the problem with F1 is the FIA. This is the body that owns F1. They are a bunch of dinosaurs who haven't figured out how to embrace the internet yet. Here in the US I can't watch F1 races unless I pay for an expensive cable/satellite package that includes the Speed channel.

I really enjoy F1 and used to watch every race back when I had the Speed channel but we've cut down our satellite package to the bare minimum necessary to have local stations, mostly for local news (now questioning that). With Netflix, Youtube and other Internet-based media sources there's plenty to watch and quality is often better than broadcast television. I wish the FIA would let go and bring the races to the Internet with all the wonderful tools and flexibility this could offer.

I love the idea of Formula E, but if it is going to be guarded behind the same kind of irrational thinking it will not reach as wide of an audience as possible.

Bernie Ecclestone is F1: he made it into something more than motor racing by negotiating the sale of the TV rights for the benefit of all of the teams (and his pocket).

For FE to eclipse F1 then something major has to happen with the TV rights. At the moment it does not look like FE will have the big star names and the legendary teams. Even if the racing is really good then it will need more than that 'natural appeal' - there is plenty of good racing in lesser formulas as it is but this does not translate to a sizeable TV audience of avid fans. F1 has great spectacle value that no other formula has, FE will struggle to attain that and will consequently be an also-ran formula.

And just as its premier race series has helped drive innovation in the engines, brakes, suspension and aerodynamics of everyday cars

are there any statistics / studies on this kind of thing? or the similar claim from space exploration?

i don't dispute there are useful advances, but i wonder whether they would have been made anyway (perhaps at a lower overall cost, if "cost" can be at all well defined).

[edit: i see from the comments below that maybe i need to repeat i don't dispute there are useful advances and the question are there any statistics / studies on this kind of thing?]

I would think a common racing term is sufficient as answer here: The faster the better.

Did F1 historically slow down or speed up various technological advances? Similarly, will FE speed up relevant tech if it becomes a hit like F1? I don't see why not, as I can see many ways where FE can contribute and/or be a testing ground for tech.

Conductive charging on the race track

Battery tech, the sky is the limit when the manufacturers will always want a full hours worth of power with the best output

Brakes and Tires are two big things where advances have come from racing. Audi's FSI technology was originally built for the Audi R8 LMP.

Amusingly: Audi didn't tell anyone about FSI until after the chequered flag. "Oh, by the way guys, we used this unproven technology and just won."

They have done that a couple times, Variable Turbine Geometry comes to mind.

f1 teams are mainly composed of two or more partners. general structure is "real race guys" and "money guys" ie automotive brands you know. havind said this if you look at those brands you can pretty much see all the related products released. for example, renault has produced f1-inspired megane hatchback body called R27 or something like that. mclaren-mercedes slr 722 is an "everyday car" that is most-closer to an f1 car. latest mclaren is also another example.

It will be interesting to hear how much noise an F-E car will produce. It's a big part of the atmosphere at an F1 event. I've seen some TTXGP bikes race and it is eerily quiet.

F1 is as much about the drama and the personalities as it is about the cars and the technology. If they can attract some big name drivers, there'll be an immediate audience.

Big name drivers would provide a big boost, but I also think McLaren and Williams involvement will help get quite a few F1 fans interested to start with. Keeping them might be tricky. But if they do, then numbers could build.

Im not sure though how F1 people would react if FE started actually did start to or look like potentially rivaling it.

Personally, I don't want to compare the two, even though it is tempting. Ideally, I want FE to find it's own niche and be successful, then hopefully grow in to its own big thing. Hopefully it will attract its own new sponsors, fans, heros, etc, and not be seen as a rival.

Of course but it's highly unlikely.

F1 is slowly becoming more energy efficient and therefore more relevant again. The changes being introduced next year are massive (1.6-litre turbocharged V6 engines, a much improved energy recovery system providing an extra 160bhp for about 30 seconds per lap, maximum fuel limits) and have already encouraged Honda to return as an engine supplier.

F1's long history and worldwide popularity is also a big factor that will be hard for any new Formula to compete with.

F1 is certainly improving but F-E seems very promising nonetheless. If we can get more constructors to actively develop their electric engines through F-E then we could see some real benefits throughout the automotive industry.

Assuming F-E gains in popularity, it would be a huge boost for the likes of Tesla to take part in this sport. I am glad that the FIA is seriously considering F-E as an alternative to F1. Moreover, I don't mind shorter races - I find these 3 hour F1 races really boring these days.

It's definitely good to see a Formula aimed at developing electric engines. I just don't think it will take off. If it looks like it will F1 will just move more in that direction and lure the engine developers away from FE.

>> "I am glad that the FIA is seriously considering F-E as an alternative to F1"

I don't think they're considering it as an alternative. There are lots of FIA sanctioned Formula (e.g. Formula 3, A1GP etc.).

>> "I find these 3 hour F1 races really boring these days."

An F1 race is limited to 2 hours max, usually coming in around 1 hour 40 mins.

Given the recent little rifts in the AGW-climate observations, what are the odds that the whole electric car movement loses steam within the next ten years?

AGW or no, I don't know many people betting fuel prices [1] will go anywhere but up.

[1] http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/52645000/gif/_52645454...

You probably don't know many people who bet on fuel prices then. The current price is the best guess for the future price, and that's true with both oil and gasoline. This means that there is almost always a 50/50 chance that any future price will be higher or lower (barring seasonal adjustments, of course).

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/refined-products/rbob...

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/crude-oil/light-sweet...

"With the combination of new supplies of oil, an aging U.S. population and the permanent demand destruction we have seen means that baring [sic] a major disruption of global supply gas prices have put in what should be a historic peak."

http://www.futuresmag.com/2013/04/09/gasoline-sees-calls-for...

F1 is special in that it is the most fervently followed spectator motor sport. It is not just about the cars and the tracks and the action.

I'm not sure what fervor means here, but in 2009 F1 events had a total attendance of about 2.8 million. Whereas NASCAR had a total attendance of about 3.8 million.

You forget the TV. F1 is global, while nascar mainly concerns USA.

Got any TV numbers to compare?

In 2009 F1 breached 600 million. (First figure I found)

NASCAR? I couldn't find a number to quote.

Also, how many F1 races? How many NASCAR races? Im not sure attendance compares.

Nascar also runs about 10-12 more races per year than F1.

I can't find one either: but I'm not sure "I saw it on TV" is as good a measure of "fervor" as "I paid good money to attend it in person."

As to number of races, surely a moment's thought will convince you of the speciousness of that argument. That's like saying "Sure, The Dark Night had a bigger take than Moneyball, but it was on so many more screens."

Not that I am remotely interested in NASCAR...

Attendance wise, NASCAR is local. Its in one country and sort of moves locally. F1 drops down in countries, then disappears. The whole thing is different. Frankly, I think its pretty hard to properly compare the two in any reasonable way. Its pretty much like comparing hockey with basketball, there are similarities, but they are totally different sports.

BTW, I am one of those rare things, a British NASCAR follower. Not exactly a "fan" as such; I enjoy it, but I'm not knowledgeable beyond the obvious. That said, F1 is my main thing. One of the reasons NASCAR appeals to me is the almost complete contrast with F1 (and Indycar, which I also watch).

The SRT-01Es will also use electronic generators to make a whooshing noise, at least when in the pit lane to alert mechanics.

Excited to see how this will pan out

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