My time with the Steam Controller | Hacker News Reader

My time with the Steam Controller

tommyrefenes.tumblr.com

224 pointszdw78 comments

    Truth is, there are no formulas…it’s just a big huge hack.
    I spent two months on the controls for SMB to get them perfect.
    Everything from the weird “friction” that happens when you
    change directions in the air to the 200MS delay that happens
    when you’re on a wall and pull away is based on how it feels to
    me when I play it. None of these formulas are based on physics
    concepts, they are 100% based on feel.

I like this. It's brutally honest and sounds wrong, but the result speaks for itself. Super Meat Boy has _great_ controls and that really makes a huge difference. Here's to one perfectionist programmer who really cares about the nitty-gritty details of great game design.

Why does it sound wrong, is there a tradition of using actual physics in side-scroller interactions?

I think it could sound wrong to the naive because novices generally want things to be simple. They want a few rules, a simple formula, a way to reduce an unknown problem to a known one.

This comes up a lot. The most pithy version I've seen is from Mencken: "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." But the same lesson is in the [1] Dreyfus model of skill acquisition, and also in the shu-ha-ri model [2].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisit... [2] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShuHaRi

It doesn't sound wrong, this is the best way to attain a game were controls and movements feel great. This is my big problem with the new Counter Strike : Global Offensive that a lot of new comers don't see. It doesn't feel as good as old 1.6 or quake 3 or uT... It feels like developers didn't really care about great movements and focused on other things in the game.

I can't agree more with SMB's daddy, movements are the most important thing in the game. It's the core.

Haven't tried CS:GO, but do you think it's related to being on console + PC?

Coming from HL/HL2/CS, the controls are very very tight, but over the last few years it seems like most games are always xbox+ps3+pc and they never seem to be that great for PC. Either consoles get away with a lot worse controls, or the ports/PC-versions are just worse quality :(

P.S. I will say an example for me wasn't CS:GO, but some of the newer Call of Duties. Which is ironic because the first Call of Duty back on PC was actually one of the few games that could contend with Valve-quality FPS controls (I felt).

Source engine games all feel like you are ice skating. HL1 and CoD1 have one thing in common: they are both based closely on engines by id, whose movement and guns feel really "solid"

The fact is that when it comes to SMB the physics are a make it or break it kind of deal. If he hadn't spent that time tweaking them, SMB wouldn't have had a chance to succeed. And I'm not saying that the physics are the key to its success, but they definitely were a requirement.

It's too bad he didn't think 120+ FPS was important enough to support. Being constrained by consoles is unfortunate.

What does 120 fps get you, especially with a game like meat boy?

The opposite of what you would lose by playing SMB at 30 FPS [1].

http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates

Smoothness, feeling of fluidity and responsiveness. Being very timing-sensitive and twitch-skill-based, SMB would gain a lot more from 120 Hz than a slower paced game would.

[1] Of course, the gains of going from 60 to 120 fps are much smaller compared to 30 to 60, but still. People have PCs and monitors capable of running SMB at 120 fps, so being bottlenecked by the software is frustrating.

The Steam controller gives up the physical buttons platformer games are designed for in order to provide higher resolution input for other genres, such as FPS's. This review is therefore looking at one of the Steam controllers weak points, so a positive verdict on a prototype is very encouraging.

Another interesting feature of these touchpads is that they may prove more durable than traditional joysticks. Even though I don't game much these days, I've still managed to wear out the sticks on one Xbox360 controller and the D-Pad on another. If the clicking mechanics on the Steam controller pads are made bomber, they should be very durable!

Encouraging but still I wasn't expecting any real issue with playing platformers with the Steampad.

The most interesting feedbacks for the controller WILL be ones on FPS, RTS and other mouse&keyboard games. Because we've seen a decade of failed attempts at solving this particular issue.

If I'm getting this right, he's saying that the fact that the touchpads are "clickable" made it into a pretty-good d-pad after they disabled the response to touch-only movement. That is, he could rest his thumb on the touchpad (like you would a d-pad) and then have it only respond to the "direction" of his press when he pushed hard enough for the click. In this state it seemed to satisfy him as a proper hardcore d-pad.

That's really neat. I wonder how many fake "buttons" you can map onto the touch-surface before it starts getting crowded. 4? 8? 9?

I see the challenge, though, with providing some kind of "nubs" without screwing up its usability as a pointer-surface. Even switching betweeen smooth/rough in the button-zones or putting simple bulges could make it feel bad as a pointer.

different faceplates for the pads would be easy.

I don't think it's as simple as making a touch sensitive surface map for buttons. Take this for exampe: in Xbox controller, you can have you thumb touching "a" and "b" at the same time, while you can either click "a" or "b" while touching another. Try doing that on a steam controller.

For those interested in the development of the game Super Meat boy, the documentary _Indie Game_ follows the two developers during the making of the game, as well as the makers of Fez.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1942884/

I thought it was a good film.

I'll back up that endorsement. I've seen it 3 times now, the last time being last night. As an aspiring game dev, it is really motivating and enlightening.

Second that. The greatest thing about that movie is that it doesn't glorify being an indie game developer at all. Watching that movie is one of the main reasons I've held back from just giving up my FTE position and going off on my own. I feel like I'm just not young enough anymore, and you really have to have a certain kind of support from those around you.

It also shows how obsession plays a huge role in the potential for success. Not all who are obsessed are successful, but it is a large factor. That's not to say that obsession is good. Unfortunately, it often places emphasis on something that really does not matter in the end. But, for the few that have a crazy idea and try to bring it to fruition, hopefully it is something they look back on later in life as a good thing, whether it was a mistake and they learned from it, or whether they grew as a person because of it.

If people could obsess about doing something that helped others, that would be much better, but not everyone has that tendency, and maybe super meat boy really had a positive effect on a lot of people making the world a better place- I don't know.

I just saw Indie Game on Netflix last night. Highly recommend it.

Almost unrelated but the documentary Jiro Dreams of Sushi is a good follow-up for inspiration.

https://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi/7018...

If you don't mind a link to Kotaku, there are some interesting impressions on there, particularly this bit:

> "This sounds weird, but it's almost like rolling two weighted trackballs that are too large to actually fit into the controller," Lambe said as he tried to explain what it's like to have one's thumbs on those two trackpads. "For camera controls, slide one thumb to the right, and you'll feel this ticking, like you're turning a physical control. Flick your thumb quickly, and this imaginary physical thing reacts like something with weight to it—the 'trackball' continues to roll for a bit, eventually coming to a rest. And since it's all controlled through the software, the same trackpad then becomes more like a mouse or a laptop trackpad when you're navigating through menus."

http://kotaku.com/valves-controller-has-been-tested-here-are...

If you were to ask me to choose between Steam Controller and a 360 controller, I would choose 360...if tomorrow all game controllers were wiped off the earth and the only option was the Steam Controller, I don’t think this would be a bad thing.

Resounding endorsement.

Yeah, but the "..." in your quote has the all-important qualifier: ...Don’t take that as slight to the controller though because it’s more about the comfort of familiarity over functionality. I would choose a 360 controller because I have several thousand hours experience using it, however...

I think it actually is considering that both games he played were platformers (SMB and Spelunky).

The 360 controller is pretty much the ideal controller for that genre so if the Steam controller can reach parity that's a big deal.

The real test is how it performs with twitch FPSs and games like DOTA.

As someone who has wasted a lot of their life on DOTA2, I can't see me playing it with a controller. There's just too much accuracy involved in clicking for that (and that's saying something, because the accuracy required is nowhere near that of an FPS).

The dota2 quick-chat wheel suddenly just made sense.

Well, that's just good design, I don't think they were explicitly thinking of the controller.

Does DOTA2 really require that much less accuracy? I've found in FPS games, the amount of accuracy required is often proportional to the time you have to make the shot, while in DOTA2 it goes the other way- the more units on-screen, the less time you have to act, and the more difficult it is to select the right unit.

I guess it depends, if you're sniping you need a lot of accuracy. Then again, I can't say I've never ultied a creep...

Right, but if you're sniping you generally have time to chose your shot, and more than a few seconds to make it. In DOTA2 in the middle of a teamfight, the whole tide of the engagement can change in 1-2 seconds, and when there's creeps everywhere it can get more difficult to mouse-select your target.

Long time Halo veteran here so i dont really see why this would pose problems on FPS games.

Microsoft tried pitting average pc players against pro console players. [1] Guess what happened? The pro's got destroyed... Skill in Halo is mostly coping with the bad controller. Skill in Counter-Strike is very different...

[1]http://www.rahulsood.com/2010/07/console-gamers-get-killed-a...

Agreed. Having said that, I think something like this would work:

For clicking and targeting, you have the touch screen. Dota 2 is a 5vs5 player game. Controller can display all your enemies on the touch screen, just as you'd normally see their profile pictures at the top of your screen. You can click on their profile pictures to target them when they're visible on the map etc. As for the movement, I think movement could be much better with a game controller. You probably can not click on a map and wait for your hero to go to the spot you've clicked on, but you can direct him there with one of the touchpads.

I think another big problem would be using the shops. In the current style of the game, I don't think it'd be possible to use the shops with a controller because there are just too many items. Having said that, if Valve really wants people to play Dota 2 with a game controller, I'm sure they can implement some changes. Currently in game items are seperated in categories. They can use that wheel chat idea with the shop and let players browse through the items. I'm just brainstorming. It can be done. 2 different UI implementations for 2 different platforms, but one game.

I'm not saying these changes or even playing Dota 2 with a game controller would be ideal, but I think it's doable to make the game controller friendly. But there's no way in hell I'm going to give up on my mouse and keyboard for Dota 2 and most of the games that I play (apart from the sports games).

You can work the shops easily enough with the quick buy button, but there's no way in hell I'm taking my eyes off the screen when in a fight to look down at my controller so I can target someone. Neither would I like people to be able to auto-target in some way and get a competitive advantage over me.

Yeah, as I said, it wouldn't be ideal. Valve would pretty much have to change the whole interface to make it more controller friendly.

Take it from a guy who has actually played it with a controller. I played LoL with a xbox 360 usb controller. its nearly impossibly to get it right. I had figured that this wud be fun cuz i could map the spells to the buttons but the pointer movement is so not cool. I tried higher sensitivity and the pinter was running all over the place, so brought it low so i cud aim with precision but then turning an attack into a retreat took a LOT of time. It was just a crazy experience. Maybe we could get better at it over time but i dont see why anyone would sacrifice their mouse advantage to play on a controller? it would be a huge disadvantage in a competitive game.

That is only because a controller doesn't work well with MOBAs.

Blizzard made really appealing console controls for Diablo3, i actually had more fun playing it than the PC version. If that would work for a competitive PvP MOBA is another story but i think it could work and player movement could even be more accurate!

I really don't think you can call the 360 controller "ideal" for platformers with its unusable d-pad. Or do people actually use sticks for platformers these days?

Since the Wii U's not selling so well, most people probably don't know about it, but I think the Wii U Pro Controller is probably the best modern controller for classic gaming. It's basically a 360 controller with Nintendo quality. And people have already written drivers for Windows and OS X, and support was added to Linux in 3.11.

Most people do actually use the stick for platformers.

in a sense, he's touching on the essential unspoken issue here. the SteamPad is a solution looking for a problem. This is more about Valve's business positioning than it is redefining gaming.

Everyone's already pretty happy with their xbox 360 controllers, but Valve isn't happy that their platform isn't in your living room. Therefore, they want to bridge the gap so those titles that wouldn't translate well to the living room are more playable. Spelunky and SMB are amazing games, but very arcadey. They're test cases that can only show that this controller adequately compares to current controllers.

A better test would be hearing how people do with titles you could less readily imagine playing on a ten foot display. I want to know, as a PC gamer and input control snob:

1) does this let me handle FPS games properly (ie twitch controls to compare to mouse level quality).

2) can I play RTS style games and do stuff like macroing and movement with the fluidity of kb/mouse.

3) what advantages do I get over an xbox 360 controller, which is decent enough in most cases.

4) does the loss of thumbsticks mean a loss of tactile response? I love the sensation of movement within Dark Souls as I tap on my thumbsticks.

Nubbins would be helpful it's true, but it would be nice to have detachable sticks for those of us who want them. The valve patents from a few years ago showed something like that. Of course, adding thumbsticks then basically rolls back the design to being just another joypad.

I'm skeptical, possibly because in a sense the SteamPad isn't doing anything new (while yeah the haptic is probably amazing compared to anything else current), it's just trying to translate our current experience of input from the quality we get on desktops, to the couch in our living rooms.

> the SteamPad is a solution looking for a problem.

One paragraph later you articulate the very problem for which it is a solution:

> they want to bridge the gap so those titles that wouldn't translate well to the living room are more playable

> Everyone's already pretty happy with their xbox 360 controllers

I don't know about pretty happy...I really wish the 360 controllers were more like Nintendo's traditional controllers (like the Wii Classic Controller or the Wii U Pro Controller)

I think one of my favorite controllers was the old 6 button sega controller. That with the addition of trigger pads is probably imho about the best layout.. though now we want/desire dual analog inputs, which makes it a little more tough to get right. I think that the Sony PS* controllers are probably the best option for today's play, and the 360 controllers are close.

Then again, I really don't play much.. I do wish the Ouya controllers were actually more responsive in games/emulators.. the controllers feel okay, but when they miss on screen, it's just painful.

I think Nintendo blows both Sony & Microsoft at getting those type of controllers right. Sony's PS controllers have the unfortunate effect of causing blisters with its rigid/abrasive d-pad for some more intense games (Mega Man X6 comes off the top of my head) - heck, I've even got a blister once from the d-pad from playing an RPG! The analog sticks are also in a strange location for the PS controllers when it comes to FPSs.

Microsoft's...the d-pad is just atrocious.

What Nintendo does right is get the combination of location of control inputs right and their soft, but responsive, d-pad. Game selection is another issue, but controller-wise, I haven't seen anyone beat Nintendo at yet.

For some reason it never occurred to me that you can use the right touchpad as buttons. It makes perfect sense, though.

Are there 4 buttons under each pad, or is one button, with the differentiation purely based on your thumb position? If it's the latter, that's impressive.

I imagine it's similar to an old iPod's click wheel. Only tuned to be more precise, easier to click / press and overall more accurate.

With that said, I agree with the author in that I enjoy buttons on my controllers. I need to physically press something. Playing SMB, for example, on a touch screen just doesn't feel right. I'm also worried about how pressing multiple buttons on the same touchpad is going to work. Are the diagonals going to act as a combo-press?

from what i've read, you can bind any section of the track wheel to whatever you want - so in this case, probably not a combo press.

as for needing to press something, there's this new haptic feedback stuff.

It is one button that detects thumb position, so it can be split nearly infinitely.

The Steam controller is a compromise, a sort of "one-size-fits-all" solution to game controls and something like that is incredibly hard to pull off. From reading this it sounds like Valve are on the right track though, as it seems to be decent for platforming games. Now i am really curious on how it performs in a classic FPS or MOBA.

The nice thing about touch pads for controllers is that you can create new button layouts, or have them change in game. I just bought FIFA 2014 for Android, and it really adds new possibilities. A low latency touch input with controller like feedback would add alot of interesting new control schemes...

This blog post seems to confirm my suspected fears for this controller (mentioned briefly in the end of this HN reply):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6458430

I knew Valve wouldn't produce something that was just garbage so I figured it probably worked reasonably well, but I also suspected at the end of the day it was a compromise solution that didn't really work as well as the existing one (though to be fair it is trying to solve two problems, the traditional console controller issue and the mouse/keyboard issue). I'm not convinced such a compromise needs to be made as wireless 360 controllers exist, and wireless mouse/keyboards exist (in many form factors).

I'll still try the Steam controller myself (when/if it is available to demo without buying), they still have time to make it even better since it is now in alpha. But given his leadup about controls being very important to him matching my own game playing, I suspect when I have a SteamMachine I will be using the wireless 360 controller or a wireless mouse/keyboard on my coffee table (depending upon game being played) and not these compromise controllers.

My question is not so much "Is it an acceptable substitute for current controllers?" Rather, I'm curious about whether it enables developers to do things that traditional controllers cannot do. This review is really about backward compatibility. It seems to be backward compatible enough to be worth buying for a niche game that requires it since I can still use it for traditional games. That's what separates this from say, a guitarhero guitar. The backwards compatibility will make it more likely to succeed, while opening doors for innovation.

There's so many possibilities for this controller. Between software 'buttons' on the touchpads, swipe gestures, the pointing ability, and also the touchscreen, alot of innovation in control schemes is possible.

Interesting that the functional prototype was 3D printed.

Considering that an injection molding run takes ~$100k minimum to start up, it's not that surprising.

There are other methods of small scale manufacture though, it's not like 3D printing is the only alternative.

It's extremely common actually.

He says the controller is a bit "bulky" compared to the PS3 controller, I wonder if the 3D-printing material makes it heavier than the end product might be.

> It is thicker than an Xbox 360 controller at the base where the sides of the controller rest in your palms. The weight is about the same. I didn’t feel as if the controller was too heavy or too light. I did notice the bulk of the controller, but only as a differentiation from the PS3 controller I’ve been playing with recently (GTA5) and the 360 controller I use for PC gaming.

I'm not familiar with the Xbox 360 or PS3 controllers, but from this I think it was the size, not weight, "bulk" referred to. It's the same weight as the Xbox 360.

I clicked because I wanted to see something controlling a steam engine. Oh well.

Oh, wow. I hadn't realized until this review that the thing has four distinct shoulder buttons and four underpad triggers. That's eight full buttons that are accessible while keeping both thumbs on the pads--better than any console gamepad I've seen! I feel better about the thing in general, now.

The only test that matters for this controller is, can it be used to play StarCraft 2 competively? There is no gamepad out there that can play RTS well right now. This the problem that needs solved to bring PC gaming to the living room in my opinion.

"The living room" isn't about meeting the needs of every PC gamer, because what meets the needs of every PC gamer is the PC.

StarCraft 2 requires dozens of buttons, and isn't even on Steam. It's not going to happen anytime soon.

I hate console and touch games. They are simplistic and designed for people who don't like 'real' games. Yes, I am a PC gaming snob. Unfortunately, I work on a computer all day and it's very hard to find time to game on the PC since I like to see the sunlight occasionally. I think there a lot of people like me who grew up playing CS, TF2, UT, Quake, WC3, SC who would jump at a good controller that let them play 'real' games on the couch after being at a desk all day.

Furthermore, Valve is claiming that the controller works well for RTS etc. They demoed it with the newest Civilization to select people. None of us will know until they try it though.

Civ 5 is not real time strategy, it's turn based, and as such requires almost negligible mechanical skill to play.

I could imagine playing Civ on the couch with the Steam Controller - it'd work well. I don't think even Valve expects to bring StarCraft or Dota to the lounge room though - those games are designed around a mouse.

From http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamController/

"Whole genres of games that were previously only playable with a keyboard and mouse are now accessible from the sofa. RTS games. Casual, cursor-driven games. Strategy games. 4x space exploration games. A huge variety of indie games. Simulation titles. And of course, Euro Truck Simulator 2. "

They do expect it to work with RTS.

Interesting! I gotta say, I find it hard to believe it. RTS games generally have to be designed around a controller, much more so than other games. Maybe they're doing exactly that for Dota 2?

I can't even imagine how a game like StarCraft 2 would work on a controller like this.

Maybe the key is that it just has so many more potential inputs? There are buttons all over the back of it and hundreds of points and gestures can be mapped to those pads. It is comforting that Valve makes Dota 2. They have an interest in figuring it out.

They took the one thing I hate about playing platformers on smartphones and made a controller around it. Would be more impressed by pushing forward Oculus Rift support.

It supposedly has very advanced tactile feedback. I'm hopeful this bridges the gap between touch and buttons. Time will tell, I suppose.

I don't get why these companies keep trying to differentiate on controllers - the controller seems to be the most refined part of modern video game consoles.

Virtually every aspect of a gamepad is patented and fiercely protected.

The Achilles' Heel of the Xbox 360 gamepad is the wobbly directional disc. Nintendo uses a sensible cross, Sony's is in segments. Microsoft had to find an alternative which didn't involve paying a fee to a competitor for each unit sold.

I hate playing FPS games on Game controllers it sucks. I am a long time Mouse player and I am super excited about this controller. MS was testing a Xbox live bridge so PC and Xbox players could play together but a average PC player would always beat the best controller players.

sounds exactly like apple touch pad, where you can either tab or click to register a mouse event. I hated having to click the touch pad so all I use is tab. but steam controller uses thumb so I think I should feel ok since thumb is stronger than forefinger.

I really don't think the touchpad is going to work as well as a mouse or a thumb-stick. After several years of iOS gaming I still loathe games which use an on-screen "gamepad" design.

My issue with those on-screen gamepads is that I drift. There's no feedback about whether or not I'm centered on the dpad for example. It sounds like little nubs would fix that pretty well.

They spent a lot of time in their announcement talking about how they know that model is terrible and how they've tried to address its shortcomings using haptic feedback. Presumably, the final product will be nothing like thumbing over your iPhone.

Well we learned a lot about Tommy Refenes. The insights into the controller were more vague.

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