Gates calls Ctrl+Alt+Del command a mistake | Hacker News Reader

Gates calls Ctrl+Alt+Del command a mistake

bbc.co.uk

46 pointsrb2e55 comments

In hindsight, the standard PC keyboard is covered in absurd anachronisms. Never-used commands get to own their own keys, while frequently-used actions can require complicated chords. I mean, I can't even tell what Scroll Lock does, and Caps Lock is the source of constant rage... but if I want to switch to the previous tab in any tabbed interface? Why that's just CTRL+SHIFT+TAB. How simple!

Leaving soft-reboot on a complicated mess like CTRL+ALT+DELETE makes perfect sense. Using that combo to log on or access a perfectly useful menu is hopelessly moronic.

Actually it's just Shift-Tab. Unless you want to switch to the next tab to the left in Firefox, then yeah. Edit: oh tabs! Never mind...

It's not just Firefox - any Windows UI that uses tab-panels will support ctrl-tab (and ctrl-shift-tab). This applies to SSMS windows, properties windows, the task manager, etc.

What?! He was talking about going to the previous tab. :) And it's not just in Firefox--lots of applications and operating systems use Shift+Tab and Ctrl+Shift+Tab.

Remember that PC keyboards were modeled after these things called 'typewriters' and typewriters often had a caps lock or shift lock key, so it made it onto a computer keyboard.

Things like copy/paste or cycling through currently running applications had to be keystroke combinations since typewriters had no idea of clipboards or running applications.

Yes, but the keyboard has already substantially changed from the typewriter. Everything to the right of the "enter" key or above the number line is new, and plus MS got the Windows/Meta and the Rclick key standardized pretty late in the game. The number of bucky-keys isn't exactly consistent across typewriters either - settling on CTRL and ALT is prettymuch an accident of history. The rarely-used function keys have been something of an anachronism since the jump to GUIs (I remember the days of little paper overlays to show all the function-key commands for Word Perfect), and I doubt you'll find those on a typewriter.

The PC keyboard wasn't the only keyboard. Apple computers didn't have F-keys, AS/400 keyboards had 20+ F-keys and another cluster of specific keys to the left of where the Tab/Caps/Shift keys are today.

In the same ways, it's a shame that Paste/Copy/Cut does not have their own key.

Note that you can disable the Caps Lock key in windows somewhere with RegEdit.

Miss the three fingered salute? Then enjoy the linux kernel's Mystic SysRq Key Combo of l33tness!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key

The difference is that I have needed SysRq once a year or even less. As long as you have a second internet-capable device, you can look it up.

I don't know... there's something about Ctrl+Alt+Del that was so uniquely satisfying -- maybe because it required two hands? Because it was so arcane and unintuitive? And the awesome power to restart your computer via simple key presses, no matter how locked-up it was?

It's bizarre to say, but I almost miss having something like it on my Mac. A single, obvious power button just isn't as much "fun".

Go nuts: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1343

On a tangentially related note, it took me a while to make the connection that HALT on x86 is 0xF4 -> Alt+F4 = close in Windows.

I'm not sure those are anything but coincidentally related.

don't forget, it is actually a Secure Attention Key (SAK) - really awesome - I'll miss it when it's gone for good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_attention_key

Full Interview is here http://youtu.be/cBHJ-8Bch4E and he talks about ctrl + alt + delete being mistake at around 16:33.

So a funny story which relates. The actual "feature" of resetting the system (sending it the appropriate non-maskable interrupt) was handled in early PC's by the keyboard controller, which was a chip on the motherboard. I was at a company and we were building our own "lights out" server system, no keyboard, so the hardware engineer deleted the keyboard controller from the schematic. The issue was that the BIOS we got from AWARD couldn't deal with the fact that there was no controller, it would enable the interrupt anyway and I guess the pin was simply not connected on the interrupt controller so we'd get random interrupts. Back and forth half in English and half in Chinese to get the BIOS fixed, every time an update came it would be broken again. It became such an issue that the HW engineer built a small board that had the controller on it that could be 'blue wired' into the circuit so that we could continue to debug/build stuff while the BIOS guys were in a 'broken' cycle. In later versions we switched to AMI and had a much better time of it but sheesh it was a pain.

What's the alternative? I'd like some sequence of keystrokes that goes directly to the OS and can't be intercepted by other programs. I want to know that the dialog I'm typing my password into is really the OS.

There should be a single button on the keyboard, instead of requiring 3.

Sure. But what do you do about the tons of legacy hardware in the world?

fall back to ctrl-alt-del.

So you're saying Microsoft didn't make a mistake. The keyboard manufacturers did.

New keyboards could simply send the Ctrl-Alt-Del key combination with a single button press.

When the IBM PC was being designed, that wasn't so much of a problem.

A single button on the keyboard would be great for an OS login request or something to bring up task management.

A single button on the keyboard is utterly unsuitable for a request for soft reboot unless it is recessed and requires turning the keyboard over.

No one said the same button/chord had to perform both of these commands.

Bzzt. The correct answer is no button.

The nice thing about the key combination is that the constituent keys are still useful on their own and in other combinations.

IIRC, other computers such as the Apple II had a single 'Reset' key. It was not uncommon (for me) to be typing in my code from a magazine, reach up to hit backspace (delete) and accidently reset the computer. :(

There were a few iterations that depressed the key, etc.

Overall, I liked the three finger combination because you had to mean to do it.

I will say that using it to login/lock windows instead of rebooting was not intuitive at all.

What is your conceptualization for 1 key being better than 3 in this context?

What I'd like is a trustworthy key-combo (preferably a single key, SysRq seems a good candidate) that toggles an overlay on the screen indicating what application "owns" each visible portion, with a very distinctive style identifying parts drawn by the OS. All obscured-input text fields would, by default, only be enabled when the overlay is visible.

The overlay would always be available so any app that asks for any sensitive info could use the same mechanism, and I could use it even when the developer didn't think the information was sensitive, or didn't attempt to protect the input channel for any other reason.

"[...] Ctrl+Alt+Del because it was impossible to press with just one hand."

At first I thought, "Well, not impossible, really...", because you can "play the chord" with your right hand:

Pointer (Ctrl) + Thumb (Alt) + Middle (Delete)

But...

The older keyboards [1] only had a single "Ctrl" key and a single "Alt" key. They were located on the left side of the keyboard, while the single "Del" key was located on the right side.

So, with that configuration, it actually was impossible to perform the combination with a single hand.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=%22IBM+5150+Keyboard%22&tbm=...

For some reason, cartain PC clones didn't let you do CTRL-ALT-DEL with the right-side ctrl and alt keys. I can remember the early models of eMachines not allowing it, not sure if it was the keyboard itself, the BIOS, or what.

Which fingers do you use? For me it's left index and ring and right middle.

Left palm, side of left thumb, right middle or pinky. Or, using right alt/ctrl: right thumb, right index, right middle.

I'm almost playing the chord with my left hand. Left ring finger, left index finger and right index finger.

it used to be left pinky and index, and right middle finger..but after getting used to mac it's now left ring finger and index with right middle finger.

The only right way to do it is left index finger, right index finger, forehead.

Heh... as a pianist, I'm used to unusual hand positions. I use my left hand, put the thumb on the right-hand [Alt], left index on the right-hand [Ctrl], and then left flipper, ring, or pinky, depending on where [Del] is located. I'm amused that people think you have to use two hands.

On my laptop, [Ctrl] and [Alt] are next to each other, so it's right thumb on both of those, and right index for the Del key.

What chord do you hear in your head when you're doing that? Probably some diminished thing.

I didn't realize anyone else heard chords with multiple-key presses. For me, the [Ctrl] is an A (435), the [Alt] is a C(5), and the [Del] is an F#(5), so it's a D7 minus the root. A fairly bland chord, when it comes right down to it, but then I imagine a G#(2) underpinning it, to give it just a little character, but still resolve to the nice, bright G.

Left hand: ring on ctrl, pointer on alt. Right: pointer on delete.

If it was a single key I would have to have one of those plastic shields installed on top of it like you see in the cockpit of jet fighters. Gotta flip it up and then push it lol.

It has a name - Molly Guard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_red_button#Molly-guard

Which use of ctrl-alt-del exactly does he consider a mistake? I can't believe that anybody could consider allowing the computer to be rebooted with a single accidental keypress a good idea.

So what solution do you offer?

I'm pretty happy with that combination, and single-handed people probably curse this every time they have to ask someone else to do it for them.

I can do it with nothing but my right hand, as AltGr+Cntrl+Del works fine (on Win7 / QWERTZ) :)

Ctrl-alt-del doesn't reboot a Windows computer (without additional input) and it hasn't for quite some time. Even Windows 95 had a "Close Program" dialog box.

95's "Close Program" box had a message that hitting it again would really reset it.

http://i.technet.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC190256.gif

I know; that's why I asked. The article didn't make it clear whether he opposed it already in the DOS era (he mentions that it was IBM who originally came up with the combination) or only its more recent incarnations.

Perhaps DOS wouldn't have restarted on that keyboard interrupt if it had been a single button?

I believe the article suggests using it to log in, not reboot. The use of ctrl-alt-del for reboots was not a microsoft innovation.

These days I much prefer CTRL+SHIFT+ESC.

Hindsight is 20/20 Bill :)

I think the good thing about making it three buttons is that you have to learn something kind of complex and arcane to gain a bit of power over the machine. It tells you something about the machine in order to interrupt it this way.

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