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Comment by npc | Hacker News Reader

That's dumb, just because someone isn't willing to go to an extreme measure to prevent something doesn't mean that more moderate measures are unreasonable. Banning all electronic devices on airplanes would be a major headache for everyone involved and would probably be overkill, but the risk is still non-zero and asking passengers to turn devices off for a few minutes during the two most dangerous times in a flight is perfectly reasonable.

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Banning all electronic devices on airplanes would be a major headache for everyone involved

I think we've seen that this is not a problem for the Powers that Be. It's not as if the TSA chairman ever has to fly coach.

and would probably be overkill

I'm certain that we've seen that this is not an obstacle for implementation by the government.

but the risk is still non-zero

(Shrug) Zero accidents out of tens of millions of flights in which you can be pretty sure that at least one passenger has left their phone on. Close enough to zero risk for me.

You're still welcome to get a PPL and have as many cell phones as you wish turned on while you fly.

If you think anything that doesn't directly cause accidents aren't worth regulating, you don't truly appreciate why we have such good air safety.

Letting he pilots chit-chat when landing can't hurt either, right? Millions of successful flights before the sterile cockpit environment idea came about, would perhaps seem like close to zero risk for you, yet we are all safer now because of it.

Life offers you no guarantees, and risk avoidance costs money, time, and convenience. How safe do you want to be? Speaking for myself, I was fine about three nines ago.

That's the problem though. You don't fly thousands of passengers each day and have seen several of your peers bankrupted or seriously financially wounded by a single high profile accident, so you might have a different view on the risks compared to the ones running the airline.

By definition I take far more risk when flying a single-prop light aircraft, and I'm fine with that. What I don't expect is to be able to force that risk level on other people.

But you haven't shown that there is any risk, and neither has anyone else. Which (again) is why we're still allowed to bring electronic devices up to and including cell phones onboard passenger aircraft.

You can't run a civilization on the Precautionary Principle. You understand that, right? Most people understand that, but the TSA and (until now) FAA don't seem to.

But you haven't shown that there is any risk, and neither has anyone else.

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the onus be on proving that there is no risk, not that there is?

That's called the Precautionary Principle.

It would have kept us confined to the caves, if not the trees.

I should have said "acceptable risk" not "no risk".

And it's the reason why flying is no longer only for the adventurous willing to risk their lives. Too bad you don't appreciate that and seem to take it for granted.

Here's an example of the kind of logical trap you are falling into: http://boingboing.net/2010/11/19/odds-of-cancer-from.html

And I could point to lots of counterexamples like Deepwater Horizon. What's your point, that you would be happier with a riskier aviation industry? As I said, get a PPL, or better yet start an airline and start lobbying against FAA rulings.

And I could point to lots of counterexamples like Deepwater Horizon.

Yes, clearly we should... um, do what?

What's your point, that you would be happier with a riskier aviation industry?

My point is that many of the things that annoy passengers don't have anything to do with quantifiable risk. Suggest reading some Feynman, specifically his essay on "Cargo cult science."

As I said, get a PPL

That wouldn't give me any special authority on the subject. These questions must be answered analytically, not with fearmongering from bureaucrats or anecdotes from pilots without RF engineering credentials.

I've read the cargo cult essay. Would you say that based on their actual performance, you would place the aviation industry or the FAA in that category? If so, could you point to other, more successful industries?

I suggested getting a PPL to get rid of all those annoyances that commercial air transport impose on you to reduce their risk. There is even an experimental airplane category if you want to err on the risky side.

I agree that it has to be approached analytically, but since you can't prove a negative, in the end you have to make a risk assessment. I certainly don't agree with all of them, but there have been enough examples of fatal accidents when the FAA didn't do their job, that I'm happy that they are taking their time to, guess what, do the analytical work, before changing a regulation. As opposed to acting on a gut feeling about what would be safe.

It's trivially easy to show that there is a risk of interference, the question is just how big the risk is, and whether turning devices off during takeoffs and landings is worth the inconvenience.

And as mentioned elsewhere there had been reproducible incidents of interference reported, which was the initial reason for the ban.

While I have long maintained that the ban is most likely not necessary, I'd much rather have he FAA make that decision and wait a few years until they have done enough studies and collected enough data.

I agree that we can't run the entire civilization on a precautionary principle, but then again that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about 10-20 minutes of inconvenience during critical flight phases. And believe me I hate the beurocracy and often overreaching rules of the FAA (or EASA in my case), but again I appreciate that we would not have he current air safety record without it. In fact, the FAA is usually reactionary in that they usually only act when fatal accidents have happened. (Pilot and crew rest hour limits is one very recent example).

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