Hacker News Reader

> I've been CrossFitting for over 6 years, owned an affiliate for 4 years, and founded the largest independent CrossFit-style competition series in the country (as far as I know).

Ah, the No True Crossfit Gym argument.

Everyone always seems to come from the one good Crossfit gym where correct form is emphasised. Where the coaches are wonderful. And so on.

The point is: trainees very rarely have the knowledge, qualification or experience to know if they are being taught properly.

It's like martial arts schools, everyone's Sensei or Sifu is an international badass.

The central problem is that CFHQ don't do quality control. Ostensibly because of a libertarian outlook, but I can't help but notice that it allows them to 1. milk the fad while it's booming and 2. better insulate themselves from lawsuits.

Our gym is not perfect, but we set standards and have a mission to serve clients in the most effective way possible.

What if HQ has good goals and it's not about "milking," but exposing people to a more effective fitness methodology?

Personally, I believe that quality is going to drive the success or failure of CrossFit, and that's why we (and many other successful gyms) have been very devoted to making sure quality is a driver in our service.

> What if HQ has good goals and it's not about "milking," but exposing people to a more effective fitness methodology?

Their behaviour can too easily be constructed into a very negative picture.

I can see Crossfit going one of two ways:

Either it will reach a high water mark and settle down to a steady-state condition. More people are coming into Crossfit, but in many markets there's a saturation of affiliates. Gyms with overheads like full-time, well-trained coaches will be partly driven out by cheaper operations with a CF1 certificate.

Alternatively, someone will construct a successful legal argument that Crossfit is a franchise operation. A subsequent class action lawsuit will turn them into a smoking hole in the ground.

On the upside, millions of people will have learnt that exercising is fun. That is definitely a positive outcome.

"and it's not about "milking," but exposing people to a more effective fitness methodology?"

Oh my, this is so funny. Yes, Crossfit is in some ways better, but I personally have a corollary:

No mainstream exercise/diet technique is effective.

Do you know someone that got fit by reading "Men's Health" BS? Well, surprising isn't it? Not at all!

And they need it to make it less boring for the average Joe, also allowing a good amount of people to go, they're decreasing individual effectiveness.

The fact that the champions use a specialized approach corroborates this.

Not to mention a lot of exercises are tiring and "looks good on paper" but their effectiveness is debatable.

crossfit is a scam. People go to crossfit to become more fit. Since they are presumably novices, how exactly are they supposed to evaluate the instruction they receive? Crossfit, as implicitly admitted in your post, is perfectly willing to allow poor and dangerous instruction to be sold with their name, as long as the cash keeps on coming.

and this:

   If you go to a gym (CrossFit or not) that programs things that expose you to 
   to any kind of injury, then you should absolutely leave.

when you later call those people dumb is really amazing. Yes, they are dumb for trusting people like you who sell dangerous coaching with the crossfit brand. You're willing to associate with crossfit and turn a blind eye to how other crossfit coaches hurt people who trust them.

I wish standards were higher; I've had that wish since starting a gym. Most gyms are good, most trainers mean well, but there are a few bad apples and people who are unaware.

I'm not turning a blind eye. There is a different between being a realist and trying to garner attention by bashing a trend that you don't understand.

If Crossfit is a franchise then the brand identity is based on the quality of those franchises. If there are significant injuries happening under the supervision of Crossfit certified coaches then that says the training and testing HQ uses is insufficient. Since the Crossfit brand ultimately is composed of (a) potentially dangerous (if unsupervised/coached) WODs and (b) trainer certification then if people are being injured at licensed Crossfit affiliates, under the supervision of Crossfit trained and certified coaches, then it means that the Crossfit brand has poor enough standards to produce substandard coaches and training.

So maybe you personally have improved on Crossfit in your box and are offering quality training but that's different than the baseline Crossfit-approved product that a walk-in can expect.

Do most good CrossFit gyms get concerned about poor standards and rapid expansion of the brand? Yes. Do most coaches mean well and concern themselves with preventing injury? Yes.

I do wonder about significant injuries. Why is Hackernews, which is a community that prides itself on scientific method and the like, upvoting sensational articles that don't have substance? Where are the studies that say injuries are significant? Relative to what? To not working out? To regular sports? To people at Gold's Gym?

CrossFit is far from perfect, and it's not for everyone, but the vast majority of the coaches, owners, etc mean well and want to help their clients achieve goals in ways that are different, and effective, compared to the status quo.

I feel there are several rather nuanced views on this. You are likely looking at from the affiliate owner perspective. Others might be looking at from an outsiders perspective. I'm looking at as from a programming standpoint. And I'm sure there are other viewpoints as well, many overlapping to some degree.

All that said, you don't need data to show that kipping pullups are a bad idea. We could get data on the number of tears or injuries, but from a programming perspective, they do not belong anywhere near an athlete. Anywhere (I really hope you don't kip in your affiliate. Please tell me you don't). Particularly a novice. And if I was a games athlete, I'd never want to see them. One wrong kip and there goes your year. Which, of course, could be said for most any lift, but the kip is particularly egregious in this regard.

And when I walk into a Crossfit gym in Phoenix and they have their intro class kipping on their first day, that negatively effects you. Like it or not, you and all other crossfit gyms are linked. Just as bad service in one Subway likely taints my view of Subway generally. Just the way it works.

And you have to remember, you as an affiliate have your name associated with HQ. And HQ is just plain bad. A couple of days ago they promoted this on their FB page. https://www.facebook.com/crossfit/posts/10151589356812676

Now, I don't care what you think about anything else, HQ should not be promoting this type of thing. There was no caveat, no disclaimer. Just some hashtags of #sketchy #nailedit (from the original poster). I know Glassman has a staunch libertarian view on the world, but fucking hell, HQ is supposed to be the role model. And this effects you, negatively, frankly, b/c you are an affiliate. Just as when some fraternity out there gets caught up in a huge rape scandal, all fraternities get slammed.

And then there is the sexist posts from HQ.

And the bad programming.

And Castro.

And Glassman.

And the Robb Wolf dust up.

And the Rippetoe dust up.

IMO, as an affiliate, you should be DEMANDING higher standards. The affiliates should be getting together and creating these standards, forcing them on HQ and making damn sure they are adhered to. HQ is obviously incapable of leading. Someone has to...might as well be you.

First, TL;DRs go at the top. That is the whole point. :)

Second, most crossfit gyms at not well-managed. They may mean well but the quality of the instruction can be awful.

Finally, you should post the name of your gym and the competition here. I travel a lot and like to visit quality crossfit locations!

Is that your experience? I travel a lot and find that most gyms do a good job.

I've trained at 3 CrossFit gums and one was bad. The coach would always try to get you to go too heavy and prescribe rediculous weights for the workouts. The other two are fantastic but totally different from each other. All in all I'm kind if surprised that hacker news isn't mire interested in glassman's business model that allowed him to scale a gym.

I've been crossfitting for years at kylered's gym. I've also judged at the competition series he mentioned, and traveled and worked out at crossfit gyms all around the country.

I've seen some bad coaches, but I've seen a lot more people who are uncoachable and are going to injure themselves in any gym with any workout and any coach. I've never seen anyone vomit, injure themselves, get Rhabdo, pass out, or any of the other things people think are so common in Crossfit. Predictably, Crossfit haters sensationalize, and people who push themselves too hard and regret it tend to angrily blame Crossfit in public instead of themselves.

CrossFit changed my body, my self-image, and a lot of my attitude, but any other gym that's based on fun, positive encouragement from other members doing the same workout at the same time, variety, intensity, and a community of friends would do the same thing.

For the record I rarely "Rx" a workout and I almost always come away from workouts thinking I sandbagged it a little. And yet I'm very happy with my results. Why would I want to push harder and risk injury? I wouldn't. I insist on doing every movement perfectly, pausing or lowering weights or reps if I'm getting tired or winded to the point that my form might be at risk, taking it easy if I've had too little sleep or I'm dehydrated or whatever. I know a lot of people who have a similar philosophy and I admire their sense, not their hard-core-ness.

I don't buy the OP's claim that he got sick from a not-overly-strenuous workout. A Crossfit workout is no different than any other, except that if you overdo it in another style of fitness and get critically ill you don't get attention on Hacker News.

TL;DR - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You can show a guy good form and coach him to be safe but you can't make him be safe if he wants to get hurt.

TL;DR - people who are irrational are dumb.

You say that like being "dumb" is a moral failure.

There was some irony in there...