Comment by jdbernard | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jdbernard | Hacker News Reader

Have you polled your employees to see if they really like the digs? And did you do it anonymously? Maybe they are not comfortable telling you what they really think.

My longest experience with an open plan office fit all of your bullet points: we all wore headphones, we used IM before starting conversation (or in place of vocal conversation as often as not), we had a private meeting room we could grab just across the hall, and everyone got alone with each other really well. Still none of us liked the arrangement.

We all felt that we were less productive, more distracted, and that there was always someone looking over our shoulder. Management actually went out of their way to stay out of our room, but the feeling persisted. Management knew we didn't like it, but I don't know if they knew how much it hurt productivity. We didn't talk about it. Nothing was going to change. They decided long ago that we didn't have room for private offices. Why complain and get on bad terms with the boss when it won't change anything?

...we all wore headphones, we used IM before starting conversation (or in place of vocal conversation as often as not), we had a private meeting room we could grab just across the hall...

All of these behaviors seem intended to minimize the differences between open-plan and private offices, don't they? Of course, one could say the same if everyone was in a private office.

Haha... headphones. I didn't really get into Danzig or Rammstein until I got stuck next to the boisterous accounts payable department. Radiohead just couldn't compete with those bozos.

>until I got stuck next to the boisterous accounts payable department

Wait, seriously?!

I've worked in a few open floor plan environments but none of them would ever dream of putting departments that spend lots of time on the phone - training, support, sales, accounting - beside the programmers.

How the hell do they begin to think that's a good idea?

Wait, seriously?!

This was at a phone company. Phone companies do everything wrong. Billing IT was considered part of finance/accounting, and so was accounts payable. (Actually, so was about a third of a 14-story tower.) To be honest, however, this was a temporary (couple of months? it's been awhile) condition, and with sufficient headphone volume I found the A/P yokels distracted me less than other IT people had when I'd been in with them. Perhaps that was my manager's theory? I'd hate to give her too much credit, but when I moved again it was to a quieter location even farther from the rest of Billing IT.

I'll add my anecdotal data point (several, across my personal experience) that it's not that uncommon.

There is also the phenomenon of in/at cube meetings. Seriously. In a development shop.

Add to that, shared cubes or "cubettes" approaching a bullpen type arrangement.

You're supposed to sit there and be productive while an hour long conversation takes place 3 feet away. Depending upon the personalities, over which you also have zero control, sometimes a quite animated discussion.

Many people who complain about open space working environments do so for very good reasons.

I'm to the point now of simply refusing to participate in them, and I suggest others consider this course, as well. Move on to something better, and trust/hope that when only those who "don't care" remain, the institution will fail under its own incompetence.

And... investigate this topic during your hiring. If the person has actively participated in advocating/implementing an open-space plan, pass them by.

Yes, this is a rather opinionated position, and many won't agree. Nonetheless, after too much misery in crap open-space arrangements and arrangements that have been forced into open-space, I'm done having anything to do with it and with those who inflict it upon unwilling participants.

yeah, I worked at a startup that hired six contractors to do phone surveys all day long, and they put them right in the middle of the big open room.

They thought it was a good idea because what else are they gonna do, we only have one big room.

> All of these behaviors seem intended to minimize the differences between open-plan and private offices, don't they?

Yes. It's basically an ad-hoc recreation of a private office when forced into open-plan.

And of course open plans are very fun to be in when you've got ear issues and can't wear 'phones for more than 10~15mn at a time before they start hurting.

I wonder how many of these developers who are working all day with headphones on will eventually develop ear issues? If the volume is up too high, it's a good bet that they'd eventually suffer hearing loss, but even at low volumes, it doesn't seem like having your ears covered constantly would be a healthy thing (the increased temperature and humidity in the ear canal might promote bacterial growth, etc.). It would be useful if someone were to do a study of the long-term health effects of wearing headphones all day.

> I wonder how many of these developers who are working all day with headphones on will eventually develop ear issues? If the volume is up too high, it's a good bet that they'd eventually suffer hearing loss, but even at low volumes

It's oft-repeated, but I am uncertain this really is a thing without a pre-existing condition.

> the increased temperature and humidity in the ear canal might promote bacterial growth, etc.

That should translate into existing high rates of ear issues in scandinavian, canadian and russian populations. Is that the case?

Plus 'cans can be open-back.

I bought a pair of open-back headphones from Amazon and promptly sent them back. I might as well broadcast my music over the PA.

I got into dubstep for the same reason. In a quiet office, I like listening to classical. But you can't use something with quiet parts for distraction. So now I listen to EDM, with a more consistent volume level. It gives me something to talk about with my 12 year old son, who now thinks I have good taste in music :-).

Corporate Accounts Payable, Nina speaking! Just a moment!

Holy crap I'd never even made that connection. (Maybe because I've also worked in a giant cubicle farm in the D/FW area, so that's what I think of when I watch Office Space?) That's hilarious. Trust me, talking on the phone was the least obnoxious thing the A/P folks did. At least when they were on the phone, there was a theoretical maximum volume at which they were speaking.

We do a company-wide survey every quarter. I took a look at the raw responses for Q2 of this year. I found a single request for more meeting spaces, but no one requested a private office or the like.

As an employee in this type of survey, I tend not to ask for things I assume would never happen. So if I disliked the open-plan (which I don't), I don't think I would ask for a private office. I would think that the open-plan is a given and not something that could change in the whole company because as soon as you give a private office to one of your developers, you have to do it for everyone who wants one which is not practical without moving.

Are employees guaranteed it's anonymous? Are the questions leading? Are you asking the right questions in the first place?

We just had a company wide survey. They said it was anonymous, but there's no way to be 100% sure of that as an employee. My company is paying another company to do this. And something tells me if they really wanted to find out who gave a specific response, they could. Point is, I'm still going to be reserved in my answers.

And ultimately, the fact remains that almost every bit of research contradicts you. I know you desperately want to think your company is different. But maybe this is a good opportunity to give yourself an honest assessment of the situation.

"Hi boss, I'd like a private office, even though everyone else in the company is forced to stare at each other across their shared desks." -- a statement you're sure to see in your company wide survey.

Was it an open-ended, "What can we do for you?" or an explicit question about open plan itself?

I'm pretty sure that if you asked your developers point blank if they'd like a nice office with a door, they would.

If you asked any developer who has actually had an office at a previous job, and I'm 100% sure they'd be in favor.

Young devs that have never dreamed such a dream might think they don't care. But they'd be hugely more productive in an office.

It is the same thing as having a big monitor for your laptop. Once you have it, you'll just feel so unproductive without it. With an office you can just get in the zone and stay there as long as you like.

With pair programming or discussions, you just pick one of your offices and shut the door. I found myself collaborating more in offices, because there is less worry about disturbing others. (Or the cognitive overhead of getting a conference room.)

By being in the open plan yourself, you're sending a strong message that there is no way offices will be tolerated, so there isn't any point in asking.

>If you asked any developer who has actually had an office at a previous job, and I'm 100% sure they'd be in favor.

After having a private office, I've discovered that I now view it as non-negotiable.

I'll consider different salary levels, benefits, but I simply would not consider working somewhere that I'm not provided a private office, to the point that it's become my third or fourth question on phone screens.

>By being in the open plan yourself, you're sending a strong message that there is no way offices will be tolerated, so there isn't any point in asking.

Sorry, Zack. When I read your post, I took you to be the CEO, like Joel, speaking on behalf of your 600 employees. I see now that you're a tech lead. So this last sentence should have been directed to management.

You have a valid point that collaboration is important, but open plan offices are not the best way to get that. Dev work is divided into talking and coding. Private offices are by far the best way to do the former without interrupting the latter. Shutting the door is a signal: don't bother me unless it is very important. The less heads down work you have, the more you keep your door open.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com