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Comment by bangbang | Hacker News Reader

I cringe reading this.

Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters?

* Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class.

* Talk with them in person or on the phone.

* If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in the IT industry. (See what I'm doing here with the bullet points?)

Parents theses days...

--edit-- As I'm reading some of the responses to my post, I have to ask, what pillow soft existence did many of you grow up with? Kids (and people) say terrible things. This isn't the sign of a bad teacher, it's an opportunity for this blogger to prepare her kids (Not just the girls) for the real full-contact brutal reality known is the the real working world. Life gets waaaay harder than this.

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Two things:

1. The OP did reach out to the teacher:

> I suggested that she talk to you. I offered to talk to you. I offered to come talk to the class. I offered to send one of my male friends, perhaps a well-known local programmer, to go talk to the class. Finally, my daughter decided to plow through, finish the class, and avoid all her classmates. I hate to think what less-confident girls would have done in the same situation.

2. Well, the issues were, in one way, "resolved" because the daughter passed the class (with an 'A') despite her apparent unhappiness. If you mean that the parent should wait till the issues are actually fixed before blogging...well, if the teacher doesn't respond, then I guess the parent should not blog at all?

edit: My bad, the sentence in context would indicate that OP offered to go talk to the teacher, but the daughter declined. Whether or not the OP should've gone ahead and met the teacher is a whole other issue.

When this child grows up, there will be no parent to write a blog post. My point being, we all have to learn to navigate this difficult world. Stern letters from mom eventually have to stop.

When? Is it never ok to defend your kid? Or is there an age cutoff?

Because it seems to me one of the primary functions of a parent, right alongside teaching them to make it in the world.

It needs to decrease over time. This girl is at the end of her high school experience, she should be handling social interactions with her peers on her own.

The mother is not paying this school to give her child a lesson in how to deal with bullying. She is paying to allow her daughter to learn programming.

The school has failed because the daughter no longer wishes to put up with the bullying that comes with learning programming (at this particular school).

Seems like a failing of the school that should be addressed.

The first point is actually ambiguous. I think she made the 'offer' to her daughter, who insisted that her mother should actually not interfere.

One time in college, I went to a busy ice cream restaurant with some friends of mine (Fenton's in Emeryville).

After entering, we saw there was just one single open table, so we went and put our jackets down on it and then got into line. After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids.

When I asked where our jackets were, a man, presumably the father of the obese family, told us that there were "some jackets" on the table but that they had the security guard come and clear them. As we went to find our coats, he informed us that "putting your jacket on the table doesn't count" for reserving a table.

In reading your post I am reminded of the certitude with which this large, stupid man asserted the correctness of an arbitrary and stupid set of rules, completely of his own making.

The system doesn't work if everyone reserves a table, it really grinds my gears when people do that in fast food joints etc. You don't need the table at that moment, people don't take long to eat there, you're bringing down the efficiency of the place by doing that.

(sorry, pet hate...)

What if everyone sat at the table and one person ferried the money and ice cream back and forth from the counter? Would that be better? Actual utilization of the table for eating is still zero, and the table is still engaged for the same length of time.

But try and evict bodies from their seats for the sole reason that their ice cream isn't in their hands yet and you would look crazy.

It's every bit as irritating, not that I would bother to confront anyone over it, it's not worth the effort. Still rude though.

Take a table when you need one in a fast food place, not as you're joining the queue. Reserving tables before you have food makes it less likely that people with food can get a table.

I get it, I really do. But if you want to stop being annoyed about this, just realize it's the norm and do it yourself. It's definitely a waste of time/vibes to be irritated about other people doing it. It's not like a grave moral issue or something. The world is full of inefficiencies and stuff to be annoyed with and a lot of them aren't actually a big deal. :)

It's not the norm, though. Not here in the UK where queuing is basically a religion.

And it's not like I dedicate hours to being annoyed at it, or think it's a really big deal. I'm rarely in fast food joints anyway.

Seriously? You should be thanking the large, smart man for teaching you the correctness of a wise set of rules designed to maximize the number of people who can use the limited number of seats in a popular fast food joint. Unless you called ahead and made a booking, you had no right to reserve those seats and inconvenience all the other people (including said gentleman and his family) looking for a seat.

A) I was in college then. I'm inclined to agree with the reasoning you gave here now.

B) But, the reason he gave was that it was against "the rules" -- that's the point: no, it's not. It's rude and inconvenient, maybe. It's not an abrogation of a code that everyone knows. It's an unwritten agreement, at best.

From your telling of the story, he was referring to the set of unwritten rules that I personally refer to as "the social contract," which you absolutely broke by selfishly reserving a table ahead of a family that, by your own admission, had their ice cream and was ready to eat before you were.

You are really inconsiderate. And way to be a bully and pick on their weight because you didn't get your way.

Oh fuck yourself.

I'm not saying what I did was right or defensible -- in fact in the comment you're replying to I said that I agreed that I was wrong. And in a reply to a sibling comment I apologized for thoughtlessly slamming obese people.

I wrote about a time I was a jerk and put my name next to it. You ran to your throwaway account so you could show that you're effectively illiterate.

You already admitted you were wrong. No need to swear, be petulant and be even m o r e wrong, but in a different way.

This post REALLY isn't going like you thought it would, is it?

I think your comment reveals more about you than me. Do you think people only post to flatter their own egos, or that the purpose of posting is vanity? Going by votes, many more people find my comment helpful, additive or interesting than those who had some criticism.

It began a discussion so that was a bonus: human interaction. I learned that I was wrong as other people made good counterpoints. So what's the problem? That I wasn't the all-knowing master of the universe at the time I posted?

Of the critics, some simply don't understand the point of the story even though it's spelled out clearly at the end. Some people have taken exception to the fat language, which I understand. I am not particularly sympathetic to them but I do admit that it was insensitive of their feelings and have apologized.

What should I be expecting here? Petals in the street?

> Going by votes, many more people find my comment helpful, additive or interesting than those who had some criticism.

Everyone on this site can upvote, but not everyone can downvote, so this is not necessarily true.

Oh, also, you're an ass.

I've been a jerk plenty of times, and those are my problem and I feel badly about them. I try to be a better person through introspection, patience, and humility.

> the reason he gave was that it was against "the rules"

That's not how I see it at all. He informed you that there was not a jacket rule. He did not in fact make up any rules or tell you anything about said rules or in fact acknowledge that there are table-reserving rules. I don't understand where you're coming from.

> After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids.

> When I asked where our jackets were, a man, presumably the father of the obese family, told us that there were "some jackets" on the table but that they had the security guard come and clear them.

Is it just me, or is this comment really absurd, off-topic, and offensive?

First, why would you leave your jackets on a table out of your sight? The whole "put your jacket on a table to reserve it" thing is somewhat socially acceptable (though irritating), but it usually also involves keeping an eye on your jacket. You're lucky it wasn't on the floor or taken by someone other than the security guard when you got back.

But the larger issue I have with your comment is your reference to the size of the people who you're still mad at for taking "your" table. What does their obesity have to do with your story? In response to an article about discrimination, it almost seems like you must be trolling. Seriously, you could just substitute "slanteyes" or "niggers" and the substance of the story would not be at all changed. It read exactly that way to me.

Normally I'd just move on and assume others were offended as well, but this is somehow the highest voted reply...

You're right. Well, maybe -- I'm not agreeing that obesity slams are on the same level as racial slurs, but what I wrote was needlessly offensive and I can understand that it was hurtful to some others. I apologize to you and anyone else, I could have written the story without those references and the point would still remain. I should have known better.

Being fat is an unhealthy choice. Slanteyes and niggers are born that way and remain that way no matter how much they diet.

> Normally I'd just move on and assume others were offended as well, but this is somehow the highest voted reply...

And this reply is the highest voted reply to the offending reply, including mine.

Just throwing this on the table...

It's amusing to me that you find this extremely insignificant story worthy of mention on HN in a thread where it's not even tangentially relevant.

P. S. He was right. No way that shit counts.

And if it were women, they'd harangue you for your use of "jacket" as a metaphorical sexual slur.

funny, you're mad because he broke your untold rule on method of reservation, on basis of his untold rule on method of reservation? And why is this particular anecdote constructive to the discussion, in any way?

It sounds to me that the kind man even let the security personnel know of a possibly lost and found articles of your belongings. I'm not going to bat you further on blatant bullying on the man's physiques, as many other have pointed it already.

One, there was one open table, they had purchased their ice cream and were entitled to a table before you do. You don't "call shotgun" on tables. So what, the family who has their ice cream has to stand now while you wait in line (during which time another table may clear by then that you can sit at).

Your rules are just as arbitrary and inconsiderate. Let the people who got their first and need to eat their food sit first, there is no point in having an empty table go to waste while you wait in line.

Right. So how did you react? Did you have your mom write the family a letter? Post it to tumblr? Write an angry post about the poor management of the restaurant? Or did you handle the situation as an adult and move on with your life?

Speaking as a teacher, I would love to get detailed feedback from a parent regarding their perception of my classroom environment.

Of course, if I had a parent suggest I needed to talk to a student and/or them about a classroom issue (the post was pretty explicit about it), I'd start there instead of waiting until the end of the semester and thereby provoking them into writing a bullet-pointed letter.

> While I was attending SC '12 in Salt Lake City last November, my daughter emailed to tell me that the boys in her class were harassing her. "They told me to get in the kitchen and make them sandwiches," she said.

Even if you think the parent is overstepping their bounds here, I would rather a parent be too concerned as oppose to not being concerned at all. Double so that he is in the tech sector while we are facing the huge gender issue. If the teacher is not doing their job stopping the harassment and thereby enforcing the stereotype, then perhaps is should be spelled out.

Kids say terrible things. This isn't the sign of a bad teacher or a worthy of a internet rant, it's an opportunity to prepare her kids (Not just the girls) for the real full-contact brutal reality known is the the real working world.

Oh.

Just curious, where's the line on this? Like, what things is she allowed to attempt to draw public attention to, and what things should she just counsel her daughter to learn to live with, and accept as a part of life?

How should a person know what sorts of circumstances belong on which side of that line? Are these written in a book somewhere that I missed?

I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that if you're female and you want to speak up about feeling belittled or harassed, the problem is in you, and we will gladly tell you that you need to stop bringing this subject up because we are so darn tired of hearing people like you try to bring us down.

If, however, you are male and you are feeling belittled or harassed, we're pretty interested in having a serious discussion about your experience. We may not agree with you and we may tell you that we don't think you should feel that way at all, but we won't tell you not to have the discussion.

If you're a woman, though? You're not allowed to have that discussion. Leave it to the menfolk.

Does that clear it up for you?

When does any male get an audience for whining? If anything there is a huge social stigma against men complaining about anything because of their "privilege."

While it's sexist, it's also a form of bullying. Bullying is generally punished in schools.

Sexist remarks are also punished in the workplace.

It is not "preparing kids for the real world" so much as it is "failing to respond to a situation in which a child is bullied."

> Bullying is generally punished in schools. Missing citation.

If you graduated from high school more than three to five years ago, you missed it, but there's been a huge uptick in formal efforts to end bullying in the United States, and especially California.

I can't really speak to efficacy, but a formal accusation of bullying is a big deal these days.

http://www.stopbullying.gov/

She - the writer is a woman.

My mistake. I would edit it but I don't see an edit button.

What kind of relationship do you have with your kid that she has to tell you important information like this via email? Does she have a dad? I am guessing NO? Honestly, just the fact that the OP is writing the letter after the class is over, rather then confronting the teacher during the class does not sound right to me at all.

How is the presence of a father relevant? The mother was away at a conference, possibly in a different time-zone or otherwise not contactable. Email seems perfectly reasonable to me.

> How is the presence of a father relevant?

If modern society has taught men anything, it is never relevant.

The girl does a lot to please her mother and chooses to communicate about important subjects over email.

Let's put it this way, I am not Dad yet, but when I am, my daughter or son will not be bullied in school because:

1. They would know how to deal with bullies. 2. And if they ever have problems dealing with it on their own, I am going to help them by doing something more then writing a letter on a tech blog.

And no matter what time of day or night it is, I would make sure that my children know they can CALL me any time they need to.

It is a long road between becoming a parent, and having a kid in high-school. Parenthood sometimes doesn't play out exactly how you thought it would.

It's not whether the author is going too far as a parent, but that that she is not handling the situation appropriately. She showed bad faith by not ever actually talking to the teacher. She sat and accumulated complaints about this class only to blast the teacher on the internet after the fact. That's not productive and it betrays intentions other than helping her daughter succeed.

> Life gets waaaay harder that this.

In my experience, life gets much better after the end of high school, because in my experience, adults don't bully adults [1]. And if you are bullied, you can generally leave.

[1] except the TSA, NSA, IRS, CIA, etc., but that's a different issue

If the most adversity you experience in life is high school you're either very fortunate or very unfortunate, hard to say which.

I've experienced a lot of adversity. But at least as an adult you can do something about it.

>In my experience, life gets much better after the end of high school, because in my experience, adults don't bully adults [1]. And if you are bullied, you can generally leave.

In my experience, life does get better but also one's ability to handle bullying gets better which leads to less bullying.

"The World" is not this static, unchanging place where everyone has to be a dick, and all you can do is learn from the school of hard knocks.

Over time, "The World" CAN be improved, and the people who inhabit it can be better to each other than they were before. It'll only change if we get youth to change, though, and teachers allowing the status quo to continue unquestioned is not the way to make sure that things are better in the future.

Hello? Why would it not be ok to tell a teacher how to do their job when they're clearly failing at it? Who, exactly, is the customer here?

My only complaint about the article is that it did not name the teacher or the school. Public shaming can work wonders.

Be carefull with the rage. See my comment. Basically, we don't know the whole story. All we know was she was bullied, she got A, the teacher didn't notice, and the mother didn't talk to the teacher and here we are reading her post publicly. Well, she got A. That's all we know. Did she behave differently in her clasroom after the incident? Say, shown more aggressive behavior or come to class with a sad face? No. The article did not say that. Can we see it is possible that the daughter carried a fake smile to class and because her performance fooled the teacher? Don't jump to the table without facts from both sides.

Public shaming seems extremely excessive when this teacher is just a symptom of the real problem. The real problem here is that we don't fund schools well enough to reduce the class sizes to the point where her suggestions are reasonable. Her suggests would be great in a world of 10 student classrooms - and that is a world that we CAN MAKE HAPPEN. If we were willing to loosen our wallets.

As it is, in a world of 30-40 (and climbing) students per classroom and 5+ classes a day, a teacher who tried to one-on-one mentor every student they came across would be fired. They wouldn't have the time to actually teach the curriculum of the class, and would quickly find themselves out of a job.

Let's not blame and shame this teacher - that's the equivalent of blaming a brick that falls off the roof of a shoddily-constructed building for killing a bystander. Instead of blaming the contractors who built the roof, let's put the brick on trial.

As a teacher, I know that it is the job of a teacher to do better. Allowing an environment that takes engaged, bright students and grinds them down is in fact a failure to do a teacher's job: classroom management is tied with content delivery in a high school teacher's job description. Yes, there are many bad teachers, but why do you excuse doing bad work, essentially arguing that wasting kids' time and potentially doing them damage is just good preparation for the real world?

Did the student tell the teacher? Did the parent tell the teacher? From the story I get the impression that no one actually brought this issue to the teachers attention. The only context we have is that the parent offered to talk to the teacher for the daugher. The daughter declined and just put up with it for the rest of the year and avoided her classmates.

Kids are really good at hiding what they're doing, especially in high school. It's easy enough to not get caught by a distracted teacher that has 20 or 30 other students to assist. If this was happening in the open and the teacher was aware of it then there's an issue, it's very possible that's not the case. Unfortunately I saw the behavior described in this article in a number of classes during my own time in high school and none of them were CS classes. There are people that will be cruel regardless of the context.

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