Smoothies and fruit juices are a new risk to health | Hacker News Reader

Smoothies and fruit juices are a new risk to health

theguardian.com

46 pointsuladzislau72 comments

It's often quite surprising to read the ingredient list on these smoothies. They consist largely of apple juice concentrate, and rather small amounts of the fruits advertised on the front.

Bananas are also common.

This is what I would like to know more about. Other day I picked up a 32oz smoothie, which said this is equivalent to 40 strawberries, 1 banana and 6 apples. How is that possible in only $5? Do they get fruits so cheap to make up for other costs? And true enough, there was strawberry puree, banana puree but apple juice concentrate and apple puree in it.

From what I understand, fruit is a LOT cheaper at the "source" -- before they're shipped, individually sold, etc. Which is why it's SO much cheaper to buy jam, than to make it yourself.

However, if you think of it purely from a volume standpoint... if you stuck 6 apples and 40 strawberries in a blender, I have a feeling that's gonna add up to significantly more than 32oz. Maybe they're really tiny apples...

Also, they can use fruit that doesn't look as pretty or is lower quality. Fruit used for juices are those not pretty enough to sell, fruit used for concentrate is those not tasty enough for "pure" juice.

> Which is why it's SO much cheaper to buy jam, than to make it yourself.

Thats news to me. I mostly can weird stuff you can't buy off the shelf in America for obvious reasons, like peach rum sauce (basically a boozy peach smoothie) or brandied every fruit you can think of (brandied apples are my favorite)

Anyway buying individual serving fruit is probably going to be as uneconomical as buying single serving jam, pretty expensive.

When I buy a couple shipping flats of peaches, for example, its only a couple bucks each. Ditto crates of apples. At least in season. I think if you bought one apple at a time from a convenience store that could add up, but to keep an apples-to-apples comparison (groan) you'd need to compare that to the price of single serving jam packets, which are kinda expensive compared to an entire jar.

There's quite a good amount of fibre waste when you pass a fruit through a juicer. Maybe that explains the 32oz.

In an ideal situation you process the fruit locally before it is transported. That's why basic orange juice is cheap, it is processed into a concentrate block before being shipped to the destination.

As others have said, there is huge savings from buying wholesale too.

Fruit juices maybe. Smoothies are a much more complex issue.

I make my own smoothies, 3 or 4 a week.

I know what goes in there. I put 1, sometimes 2 cups of fruit or berries. No added sugar, no fruit mixes, no "smoothie mix" stuff. I also add Greek Yogurt, protein, and all sorts of other mostly glycemic-neutral items.

I've also seen pre-canned and restaurant smoothies that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Some of these things are sugar bombs. Incredible amount of glycemic impact. You'd be better off just getting a milkshake.

But for me, two cups of fruit a day is not a significant health risk at all. While I completely agree that fruit juice and smoothie consumption can be just another sugary alternative to soft drinks, they don't have to be. Unlike store bought fruit juices and soft drinks, with smoothies the entire purpose is that the drinker is in control over exactly what they're consuming.

The problem is not fruit juices, smoothies or sugar. The problem is that if you drink calories in addition to meals, you get too much calories and you will fatten.

I've been drinking fruits, fruit juices and smoothies instead of most other carbs for a year now and I feel great without being fat. It's just about calories.

Calories and fat have been the go-to for mainstream publications as the cause of obesity. But I'd highly recommend watching this talk about high-fructose corn syrup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

It makes a great argument that high-fructose corn syrup might be single handily the cause of the explosion in obesity in the USA in the last two decades.

I know this video and he's wrong (HFCS is bad, simple sugar and fruit fructose are not). I would recommend you to read articles on http://dannyroddy.com http://raypeat.com http://andrewkimblog.com backed by a lot of studies showing fructose is awesome.

I'm appalled by your lack of judgment.

You dismiss the recording of a university class made by a Ph.D in Endocrinology that worked for 20+ years against the whole industry (which shows resilience and belief).

On the other hand you suggest to read articles on 3 websites that looks scammy at best?

I feel insulted.

Stephan Guyenet is a phd and he also kinda poo-poos the whole "sugar and fructose are toxic" thing. The problem with fructose is just that it's so yummy to humans that its modern ubiquity causes people to overeat.

Obviously his theory is being challenged and there might be some valid reason why it is. I'm not an expert in that field.

The guy saying Lustig is "wrong" was just full of it and I called him on that.

I could return the compliment.

And I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm saying HFCS is indeed toxic, not sugar and fructose (proven by lots of studies made by PhDs with years of experience). So he's partially right.

"feeling great" != healthy; "not fat" != healthy

A calorie isn't a calorie. The impact that 100 calories of vodka has on your body vs, say, 100 calories of Kale is significant. The body uses different strategies to break down different types of molecules. There can be toxins. There can be impact on the gut flora. Not to mention the impact that these all have on the feeling of "fullness" (which the article mentions).

If you prefer I've never been that healthy in my life. Every health marker is green.

You are grossly oversimplifying a complicated process of digesting food and its interaction with the overal metabolism of the body. Yes, calories play a factor, but also in what form you ingest them. Then there's genetic factors, gut bacteria, physical exercise and probably a whole slew of other things that interact with each other.

The article oversimplify the topic too. Saying that fructose is bad is oversimplying the reality.

Metabolism plays a very important role and even if it's really complex, fructose is very good for the metabolism (glucose is inferior in that regard).

It is kind of obvious advice. By drinking juice, you are consuming an unusually large amount of processed fruit. I hardly touch the stuff. Stick to water or tea or whatever.

It seems obvious, but you'd be amazed how many people don't do the mental math. I've actually had this conversation while waiting in line with someone as he got a Jamba Juice.

Friend: "Why aren't you getting one?"

Me: "Too much sugar. I'm trying to eat better these days."

Friend: "What?! This is a smoothie! There's nothing healthier!"

Me: "But you just saw them grind up 8 oranges, 5 bananas, and 2 pounds of strawberries and put them in a single cup."

Friend: "So?! Fruit is healthy, dumbass!"

Me: "Would you ever eat that much fruit in one sitting?"

I'll stop before it becomes painful. :) But you get the point. People have strong mental associations between fruit and health, no doubt conditioned by years and years of advertising, and USDA guidelines, and so on. But they don't get the whole "too much of a good thing" logic.

That's what makes smoothies particularly dangerous. People know they're not making a great choice when they drink a Coke. People firmly believe they're making a great choice when they drink sugary smoothies and fruit juices. And Jamba Juice, despite being a sugar bomb, at least uses whole fruit. A lot of the packaged drinks use heavily processed crap with added sugar.

Heck, I'm amazed when I see people drink a 24oz orange juice. I mean, are you ever going to eat that many oranges?! For the amount of sugar, you might as well be drinking a Coke...

There is a difference between juice and a smoothie though. Smoothie still has the fiber in it, while orange juice is mostly just juice even if you get it with 'lots of pulp.'

> "too much of a good thing" logic.

How many people are having two or three smoothies a day vs. just a single smoothie? How many of those people would eat the amount of fruit in that smoothie over the course of a normal day? There might be something to be said for getting your daily dose of fruit at once instead of spread out over the day, but I doubt that we're talking about people that are overdosing on fruit.

> sugary smoothies and fruit juices

How is a smoothie more sugary than eating the equivalent amount of fruit? Do you claim that someone eating a bowl of strawberries is having a sugary snack?

> That's what makes smoothies particularly dangerous

How dangerous are they really? Plenty of people will drink > 2 litres of soda over the course of a day. On the other hand, do you think that anyone is drinking more than even a litre of smoothie in a day?

> But you just saw them grind up 8 oranges, 5 bananas, and 2 pounds of strawberries and put them in a single cup.

Really? I make smoothies at home, and it's more like: 2 leaves of kale, protein powder, a banana or two, and a handful (or 2) of frozen strawberries (and maybe an apple or pear). This makes enough smoothie for 2 adults and a child. Are you really don't to claim that this isn't something that could be eaten in a sitting by 2 adults and a child?

Clearly comparing your smoothie to Jamba Juice's fruit bowl is not the same thing.

Well, Jamba Juice also doesn't fit "8 oranges, 5 bananas, and 2 pounds of strawberries" into a single smoothie either.

Agreed

I drink water, black coffee, tea, vodka and terribly illegal moonshine.

If you've ever made jam (jello to our American cousins) before adding the sugar to your stewed fruit, taste it. Definitely lots of sugar in there!

> jello to our American cousins

I think you mean jelly.

People use the word jam in the states. I first saw the word used at Denny's.

Read wintermute's quote.

ggp probably meant the word "jelly" instead of the word "jello".

No one is contesting the word "jam".

Don't reply to this comment.

The scenario is that a US foreigner mentioned we use jello for jam. We use the word jam.

Don't reply to this comment.

You're missing the point. Regardless of whether "jam" is used, so is "jelly" (not "jello"). I am American and I use both "jam" and "jelly". There's probably variation in usage throughout the country.

Don't reply to this comment.

Jam, jelly and jello are 3 distinct things to Americans. Jello is a brand, its just flavored gelatin and comes in a box as a powder, sometimes people add fruit chunks. Jelly is a gel made from fruit juice and fruit pectin but contains no fruit solids. Jam is similar to jelly but contains some solids.

Cant people just eat actual fruit? Is that really so inconvenient these days? All that energy wasted to process, package, transport, etc. Just eat a damn fruit.

I'd love to know how much of this pointlessly processed food contributes to environmental problems compared to cars, for example.

This is what I don't get about the soylent thing. You can walk into any drug store or corner store and buy a few canned foods that together offer complete nutrition. How the heck is mixing a special powdered drink any easier than opening a can of oysters and a can of sauerkraut and downing the contents? There isn't even a glass to wash with the latter.

There is some sort of odd cultural glitch going on in favor of drinks as "healthful." Drink foods make people think of the medicinal brews of yore? I don't know.

> How the heck is mixing a special powdered drink any easier

Surprising as it may sound, making it just a little harder to prepare can make us value it more (we tend to value our own work). I remember reading about a case of one batter mix that ended up selling more than the "just add water" mixes by asking in the instructions to add the eggs and milk.

> a can of oysters and a can of sauerkraut

that sounds like an awful diet

> that sounds like an awful diet

I wouldn't suggest eating goitrogenic foods like cabbage daily. But other than that what's the problem? Take your varying pick of assorted canned veggies (beets, peas, etc.) and wild sea foods (sardines, salmon, etc.). Instant mashed potatoes and butter for extra calories if needed. The point is all this stuff is at CVS and close to zero prep.

It was Betty Crocker's cake mix. Cakes are made for celebrating, so making it too easy lessened the experience of baking something to make someone else happy. People felt like it was too easy without the eggs, like they were taking a shortcut.

Or so the study says. I can't find the source from my notes.

I believed this until your post prompted me to look it up, but apparently it's not true: http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/cakemix.asp

Perhaps this ignores that powdered eggs do in fact taste horrible compared to fresh. They're also apparently quite bad for you (oxysterols).

Diabetes too. That's a huge problem in the US. And many people who are diabetic are not excessively over-weight. Those who are not diabetic, are pre-diabetic.

"Over 25 million people in the US have diabetes, and close to 80 million are pre-diabetic." - From American Diabetes Association

IMO, this problem is way larger than the former cigarette health problem as more people consume sugary drinks and foods than smoked cigarettes.

Indeed, the scale of the issue extends to the very young. The worst cases of smoking-related cancer are the result of starting smoking at a very young age, not unlike how obesity and type 1 diabetes are especially destructive when encountered at very young ages.

Fruits contain fibers that are beneficial for your digestive system and control the spike of sugar level in you body. If you put them in a blender, you destroy much of the fibers and one of the major benefit of eating fruit.

Or worse, removing the fiber during the juicing process.

Blending speeds up digestion and reduces satiety versus eating whole fruit, but (unlike juicing) I haven't seen any evidence that it destroys fiber. Do you have a reference?

  Apparently the lowered glycemic index for foods
  of a smaller particle size is only for starchy
  foods (smaller particles hydrolyze easier,
  making them higher GI). So while my statement
  may have held true for starches, it wouldn't for
  fruits. I have no idea about smoothies! It's out
  of the scope of the paper, though, so all we can
  say is that the study suggests that juicing
  increases diabetic risk and whole fruits lower
  it.

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/veg/comments/1le10o/eating_fruit_cut...

"Moreover, the process of blending fruit destroys its latticework of insoluble fiber, whose job it is to slow food’s digestion and absorption from the intestine into the blood, explains Robert Lustig, a pediatric endocrinologist at the University of California-San Francisco"

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/the_kids/2013/03/pure...

Does chewing partly destroy the fibers, too?

Yes but not to the extent of a machine. We don't chew our food to mush.

For those making their own smoothies: I use kefir as a base. It is thicker, has very little, easily overpowered taste, has the kinds and amounts of probiotics that yogurt claims but often fails to deliver, and is easier to digest than milk. I normally add a banana, protein powder, and sometimes berries (which are lower on calories than an equivalent amount of fruit). Delicious, and aside from the protein powder, these are all things I would consume as individual items.

DO NOT DRINK FRUIT JUICES / SMOOTHIES without a straw. The acidity from the fruit will demineralize and erode your teeth.

Here's what happened to my two front teeth. http://min.us/lbzsDfIjfJqxOz

Luckily my two front teeth are large enough to sand and grind past the damaged bottom portions and look normal again. It happened in just 2 weeks of drinking fruit juices twice a day.

We need a social-shift that treats sugary drinks more like we treat alcohol. I'm not saying let's only sell Coca-Cola to 21-year-olds, but rather that the social stigma should be different.

A sugary beverage should be a celebratory drink, reserved for special occasions, like beer or wine, not a staple of our diet.

I don't see society conforming to your ideals any time soon. Hell, I love nothing more than celebrating the end of a hard days work with a beer.

IMO people need to worry about sitting down all day way before worrying about sugary drinks.

Hell, I love nothing more than celebrating the end of a hard days work with a beer.

No disagreement from me. I would simply suggest that people think the same way about a Coke.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating the end of a day with a beer, but most people would look askance if you were drinking them all day at your desk. So why is it considered normal to do the same with a caffeine and sugar concoction that we know is highly dangerous?

As to the standing desk issue, I think it's most an issue of being sedentary in general than standing vs. sitting. There's nothing particularly natural about standing in a single place for hours either.

Unfortunately, the 'junk drink' companies have worked VERY hard to get soda et al to be treated as every day, every meal drinks. Heck, Coke was working for a while to come up with a way to have every home have a Coke faucet in the kitchen next to water many years back.

I think your point is muddied by "celebratory" and "special occasions", which is too bad because it's a good point; but it's going to be lost on people who have a beer or glass of wine with dinner, even though we probably all agree that drinking a "big gulp" beer at work is inappropriate and maybe we should feel that way about colas too.

You're probably right. Dinner to me falls into the same category. Just as there's nothing wrong with a beer or a glass of wine with dinner, there's nothing wrong with a cold glass of Coke by the pool. It's the failure to socially recognize the dangers of excess in sugary drinks that's problematic.

Well yeah. The health benefits of fruit are generally oversold anyway. But this will be met with mockery, "I can't have soda and now fruit* is bad for me too?! Scientists are dumb."

* this is where they miss the point.

Everything will be killing us in the future. Now it's the smoothies and fruit juices. I don't know what this health-society pretends, if ending all kind of consuming substances or really wasting time producing FUD. No offense to anyone.

Yes, however there is a coordinated effort on a global scale to cause people to be addicted to a substance to the detriment of their health. That is the key difference.

Why would anyone be offended? For some odd reason you're just exaggerating as if you haven't even bothered reading the article, or the valuable comments here either for that matter.

Same old risk: drink too much sugary stuff, get fat.

Well, I didn't know that a smoothie was worse than the fruit it's made of. (Not that I drink smoothies anyway.)

The fruit has fiber and a lot of other ingredients that slow down absorption of sugar. Not to mention, you wouldn't eat as much fruit in one sitting as the number of fruits you've extracted into a cup.

So you're consuming (1) just the sugary liquid extract of the fruit, and (2) getting much more of it from more fruits than if you were eating whole pieces of fruit.

Does anyone have evidence that blending and immediately drinking fruit has less fibre than eating the same amount of fruit unblended?

Make your own smoothies -> super healthy stuff with plenty of energy to get you through the afternoon slump.

Depending on the fruit you use you can still overdose on fructose which is, as everyone knows by now, metabolized (interesting story) almost only by the liver - just like alcohol.

Better title: Smoothies and fruit juices are THE new risk to health

The problem also seems to be portion size related. On the larger end of the spectrum some of these smoothies can be over 20 ounces.

>All sugars are equal in their bad effects, says Popkin

Wait, what? I thought that HFCS was significantly worse than everything else.

I was scared of the title.

Thankfully, I make my own smoothies, with no sugar.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com