Comment by danso | Hacker News Reader

Comment by danso | Hacker News Reader

Politics and civil freedoms aside, I think it's fascinating that there can essentially be this black box, i.e. the NSA, that can make breakthroughs in new mathematics with only its employees and those on the outside sworn to secrecy. They obviously have brilliant mathematicians, but more brilliant than the best ones at the world's best universities or tech companies? Or are their suspected/hypothetical theoretical breakthroughs a product of the efficiency of academic thinking that comes from being under one roof, a la the Manhattan Project (which, like the NSA, obviously had more than just people brilliant in an academia sense)

When I studied cryptography in college, our professor said matter of factly that the NSA is likely at least a decade ahead in terms of known mathematical breakthroughs, but perhaps he was biased toward thinking that because he was in the field during the 1970s breakthrough that Schneier mentions. It seems more feasible that the breakthrough is in engineering and technology, but hey, I guess it's good to know the boundaries of mathematical reasoning can be pushed (hopefully, those gains will be available to the rest of the world for non-spying means)

edit: Case in point, Schneier's 2007 post that's now on the front page

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/11/the_strange_s...

Schneier describes a random number generator, released as the standard by the U.S. government, that he concludes was likely back-doored through NSA intervention. This hypothesis was made by two independent researchers in the previous months, and others had suspicions a year before. My point being: in terms of open encryption standards, it's very amazing that the NSA (or any private entity) can make a purely mathematical breakthrough that's well-ahead of the field.

As Schneier says, the difference is that the NSA guys get all the breakthroughs in the public sphere PLUS all the breakthroughs they have privately, so they will ALWAYS be at least as far as the public, and most likely further.

Also, they might not have the most brilliant mathematicians, but private companies don't have the interest in using their math expertise to break encryption. There are more lucrative ways to exploit great math ability.

Universities may have more of an interest in advancing cryptography research, but they can't match the budget nor focus of the NSA.

Agreed. One advantage the NSA has is it can pay some of the best mathematicians to be full-time pure mathematicians. There are very few mathematicians that have the opportunity to do something like that -- even professors have to teach a few classes. I imagine it's a powerful draw to top talent and gives them the ability to spend more time on a problem than most others.

On the other hand your work is secret and you will never be recognized for what you do.

Or, if movies have taught me anything, after you've done your work and it's fully documented & reproducible... you'll be killed

There are some (if not many) mathematicians for which recognition is not a plus (and in some cases may even be a negative).

You would be recognized inside the NSA, a large technical population.

In addition, as with the CIA and other clandestine US government organizations, they appeal to patriotism and helping the national interest. That appeal seems to be fraying somewhat lately for the NSA.

If they're really trying to keep it secret, not even the NSA rank and file will know. It's all mostly need to know anyway.

Though I have no first-hand knowledge, I was under the impression that organizations like the NSA have internal peer-reviewed journals that their mathematicians can "publish" in, while remaining classified and unavailable to the public.

I have a friend who interned with the NSA in high school. Although what he did is classified, he was allowed to say that his work got published internally.

This is basically just a small step worse than many professions. Once you hit the pay wall on journal articles you want to read, how many people pay to go through?

Not everyone works for public recognition. There are enough people who are willing to work on neat problems in exchange for plenty of money who are also willing to forgo public recognition.

Never is a long time, in a decade or two you might be. BUT either way, some very brilliant NSA mathematicians know what you came up with and so do you. That's enough for a lot of people.

The most common estimate I've seen is that the NSA has 600 mathematicians. I'd not be at all surprised if, for the areas of mathematics the NSA cares about, that is more than the total for the top 100 universities in the world.

I've also read that the work environment for mathematicians there is very much like a research university. They do their research, write papers for internal publication, give and attend seminars, and so on--and they don't have their research interrupted by someone asking them to teach calculus to freshmen, and without having to worry about impressing a tenure committee to avoid years and years of bouncing between temporary positions.

The combination of a very large number of people, and a pretty nice environment that lets those people throw themselves fully into research makes it plausible that they do make occasional significant breakthroughs.

You can crack into any system with 30 billion dollars at your disposal. People are always the weak link. Most of the revelations of late suggest a "paid backdoor" rather than a mathematical backdoor or a technical backdoor. The old adage of "follow the money" probably leads to many backdoors here that were paid for with cold hard cash.

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