London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video] | Hacker News Reader

London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

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92 pointserkose52 comments

It's interesting how many more trees there are in 2013. My wife pointed out that it looks the same with pictures of New York from the early 20th century- green space just wasn't a thing we had the desire/means to rate as highly.

OTOH the major infrastructure hasn't changed much (bridges, urban areas, not just the train line which is politically determined). Technological change reshapes how live in a lot of ways in short timespans, but it's interesting to reminded that big, capital intestive stuff like bridges and tunnels and roads are still built with 50+ year expected lifetimes. I can't imagine writing software with anything like that staying power.

There is also another, more practical, reason for the lack of trees and general greenery next to the train lines.

In 1953 we are still in the age of steam and trees were cut back from the lines to reduce the risk of fires from hot ash.

There was a pretty interesting article with the BBC to accompany this a while back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23853863

> In 1953 we are still in the age of steam and trees were cut back from the lines to reduce the risk of fires from hot ash.

I'm assuming that's a joke, but one of the things that's always surprised me is how early electrification happened. The London-Brighton line was electrified in segments from 1909 to 1932. Many of the commuter rail lines in the U.S. were electrified that period too.

I thought there might have been fewer trees in the earliest video, but it was really difficult to tell with the film quality and the speed of things rushing by. If the rail was newly laid in the 50s, then they might have had to cut down the trees, and they take a while to come back.

The difference that jumped out at me the most is the decline in hats. I wonder how many haberdashers were put out of work during this period.

> it's interesting to reminded that big, capital intestive stuff like bridges and tunnels and roads are still built with 50+ year expected lifetimes. I can't imagine writing software with anything like that staying power.

I've given thought to this. Engineers are expected to get things like that right the first time, and the structures have to last a long time. But the engineers don't have to invent a new kind of bridge or road every time they design one. Software, being cheap to make lots of copies of, has to do something completely new every time you write it.

> If the rail was newly laid in the 50s, then they might have had to cut down the trees

It wasn't. The first London to Brighton railway line opened in 1841. Most of sections of the two main paths from Brighton to London (to London Victoria and London Bridge respectively) should have been complete by about 1855. There was expansion work (adding extra tracks) on the busiest section of the line around 1908, but I think that was the last major work on the London-Brighton lines apart from connecting branches.

There's of course been replacements and upgrades, but these tends to happen bit by bit.

It was after the war, and the US was doing enormous infrastructure projects, so it seemed plausible that they did something around that time. Plus, they made a film to show it. But it was really hard to see the trees in the film, so it could be an illusion.

At first I thought so too as well, but then I started to wonder whether that was just an effect of the first film being black and white. This means that the trees don't stand out as much against the grey background as when they're shown in colour.

Even if the bridges had been rebuilt, it would be hard to tell from this video.

They'd probably be in the same spot, so it is hard to tell if they have been replaced at the speed the video goes. Also, they would probably re-use legacy supports, bases etc for a new bridge, so they may even look the same as the old ones?

If you enjoy playing Train simulator games, you probably know this route by heart. I think this particular route has been made for every popular train simulator out there.

I don't play that much train sims, only a little every now and then but even I recognized parts of the track.

If you have not tried train sims and feel like the idea is a bit daft, I was once with you on that. I had, however, liked watching trains when I was a kid. But after a friend told he liked playing train sims, I had to try too and I enjoyed it. So here's my warm recommendation to try out a train simulator, it's really difficult and fun!

Echoing the above, and having driven a real train (well class 58 unit) around a large east midlands depot (a relative who was fairly senior organised it so I got to do the initial class checkout training for an afternoon) it's a crap load harder than you probably think it is. They really are complicated machines with a lot to learn and driving them is a skill that isn't something that easy to master.

The simulators, particularly MSTS is a pretty good representation and a good challenge. Go try it :) Better than running swearing 12 year olds off the track on Forza.

As point of interest, why is it that hard? What makes the task (or mundane parts of it) less automat-able than driving cars (which I think most people would say isn't all that difficult)?

It's definitely automatable, entirely. The DLR in the UK proved that. But that isn't going to happen when the problem is slightly more complicated and not predictable like it is in older lines. You have ot build with automation in mind. One tree on the line and an automated train will plough through it for example derailing it and killing many people ( http://www.caerphillyobserver.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/... ) . One dodgy point, it won't notice and won't report it and the next thing you know, the train is going sideways down a platform side-swiping people ( http://www.virginmedia.com/images/potters-bar-crash-431x300.... )

Machines are shit at noticing these things.

Also the problem is that it's not just about sitting there and pulling a lever - that bit is quite easy. There are a load of surrounding tasks like checking out the locomotives, coupling, shunting, safety rules, signalling, token exchange (which is still used), diagnosing problems (why aren't the brakes releasing can be an hour to diagnose/fix) and the inevitable "managing drunken passengers and coordinating with police" etc.

Not everything is suitable for the lowest common denominator of person or automation.

Given these are the kind of obstacles a Google driverless car has to navigate around, machines may be at the point they can match humans here. Of course this is a much more fancy, expensive level of automation than the "docklands light railway" type.

If a driverless car goes wrong, it's very unlikely to kill more than a double-handful of people.

A 5000-ton freight train capable of barreling along at 100km/h while carrying 50 tanks of propane or anhydrous ammonia or similar is an entirely different risk case ...

Indeed. In the UK, nuclear waste is transported by train as well.

Its a little sad that repeating the exercise today shows little improvement over 30 years ago. The HST125 is still the fastest diesel train in the world (the actual video was likely taken from a Diesel Multiple Unit which are lighter and more efficient but not faster), those lines are still not electrified little has changed in train signalling with most of the improvements in train control being to centralise it rather than actually improving the rail service.

That line is actually electrified in all 3 videos, just not with conventional overhead caternary. Southeast England is one of the few places in the world that uses 3rd rail power outside of mass transit metros. You can clearly see the rail just outside of the running rail in all the videos.

All of southern England does - South West train services use a third rail as well, at least on most services - some of the ones to Basingstoke are diesel-powered, but definitely Devon, Dorset, Hampshire and Surrey have electric rails.

Ah, you got me. Not a true train buff :)

Does Essex count as Southeast England? Because the LTS (C2C) line is overhead-electrified. So is HS1.

More formally, I think they should have referred to trains that depart from London's southern termini? (Victoria, Waterloo, Cannon St, London Bridge, Charing Cross).

No, it's not.

The Talgo XXI does 159mph, and the Russian TEP80 did over 168mph in a test run, which is even preserved on video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwYXjxXFha0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWDdNe_zx5A

Interesting, however all of the references I could find still quote the HST125 as the official record holder. I expect due to one technicality or another.

Apart from the fact those lines are all electrified, the problem on the London-Brighton stretch is not so much train speed as it is line capacity and reliability.

South of East Croydon a substantial stretch is just double track (one in each direction), though most of the line has four tracks (which still makes for a massive chokepoint if a train fails) , and many of the stations have very few platforms and no extra track for trains to pass on. North of East Croydon, there's massive capacity problems on the approach to London Bridge, and on the path from London Bridge in to Charing Cross.

The result is that the slightest little impact to the time table at half a dozen points or more along the line have carry on effects along the entire line.

Increasing the speed of the trains would be great, but without upgrading capacity the slightest little problem would force a lot of following trains to slow down anyway.

EDIT: Apparently the "third rail" is also a problem for increasing speeds.

Bombadier Voyager units (class 220-222) are rated to the same speed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Voyager_family

They're much more comfortable and quieter than the 125's (43's + mk3s) plus they don't give you a face full of fumes when they start up or scare your children :)

In all honesty I prefer the HST125. Part of that is nostalgia, the HST125 is a great example of technology from the golden age of British Engineering which, like the Route-master bus, outlived several generations of successors. The other part is the Voyager fleet in my experience always smell of toilet.

I was fortunate to be working in the centre of Newcastle around 2007 when the last of the Valenta-engined 125s were in service, and I'd hear the north-bound trains pulling out of the station. But since then they've changed to newer diesel engines, and they don't have that glorious screaming turbocharger anymore.

Here's what it sounded like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H-WKRIXynQ

Yeah, I know that sound well. It's a sound I strongly associate with Edinburgh train-station having taken the final leg of the Kings-cross service back to Glasgow many times while at University.

Apparently the sound of the Valenta engine was used a clip in a song but I've never figured out which one.

Until it crashes and then you are fucked. No crumple zones in the vestibules.

The route master gave many people lung cancer who worked at the depots, my father included.

Are the three videos running at the same speed? Or are they constantly adjusted so they keep up with each other so we can see more clearly any changes in landscape?

I can actually believe that the journey time hasn't increased since the 1950s. However, possibly the clock at the end of the film is there to indicate the differing journey times?

Anyway, interesting video. thanks for posting.

They've clearly made progressive adjustments to synch the journeys - it would be extraordinary if they entered/exited tunnels etc. at exactly the same time otherwise.

I make this journey everyday, pretty cool to see it as it used to be, it is a shame it is so fast.

You can see when they go through the first big tunnel (the merstham tunnel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merstham_tunnels) they enter at the same time and exit at the same time so the old one must be (maybe??) sped up.

It would have been interesting to see what Gatwick airport was like then but it doesn't really show it, other than there being a big space on the right hand side that isn't there any more (2:11).

I just checked the clock times, and it's not possible to judge.

1953: no departure time, arrival is 13:05.

1983: departure at 14:00, arrival at 14:03. Fast trip! Or someone cheated setting up clock / departure shots.

2013: departure: 08:32, arrival 09:50.

The Brighton-London trip looks to be about 1:10 based on this site: http://traintimes.org.uk/?page=/service/timetable/lateroutbo...

Trip times here are 58m to 1h 20m. https://www.thetrainline.com/train-times/london-to-brighton

The Brighton to London trip is just over 50 minutes on the fastest currently available route, which has two stops (East Croydon and Clapham Junction). The BBC article linked in another comment [1] mentions that the train used to make this video was a specially commissioned non-stop trip, so I expect it took a bit less than 50 minutes (assuming it was going at the same speed, of course).

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23853863

And of course, the video for the song, which might explain its choice: Chemical Brothers - Star Guitar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S43IwBF0uM

I was momentarily very excited because I thought this was the source of the music video

I wish there was a speed control, I would have liked to slow it down in places, having never traveled to the UK yet...

Some videos are html5 and have speed controls (you can opt in to the program or add &html5=true to the url. Otherwise, you gotta youtube-dl the file and run it in vlc.

For someone who uses the advanced features of VLC, web video is a frustrating experience.

Thanks!

Interesting how the way passengers dress has changed vastly in the first 30 years and not so much in the recent 30.

Considerably fewer hats.

Yes, Brits dressed WAY WAY better 60 years ago. I just took this trip a few days ago and was appalled and disgusted by the way that most people were dressed.

disgusted by the way people dress? were they copying the American "lady ga-ga's" bacon outfit (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lady+gaga+bacon&safe=activ...)?

It's interesting how much straighter the route has gotten over the years.

I noticed that as well and wasn't sure whether to chalk it up to lens distortion or if it really is a straighter track now. Interesting also how many fewer track "spurs" there are now.

Considering it starts and ends in the same place, goes through the same places, and the UK isn't known for tectonic activity, I'm reasonably sure the track hasn't straightened enough that it would be visible at that magnitude.

Which is a long way round of saying "I think it's lens distortion and placement".

I suppose it makes sense, straighter track allows for higher speeds.

It's a shame they used such a shitty camera for the 2013 video.

Things look mostly the same, and there seems to be more green in the more recent videos.

I wonder what the 1983 video was shot on? Would have been cool if all 3 were shot on film too heh.

The quality of video color has improved dramatically.

Direct link to the Youtube video referenced in the post: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGTwSNPqAqs

i've got dizzy

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