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Comment by kybernetyk | Hacker News Reader

Oh man, I know that. I have to put up with German bureaucracy regularly.

Compared to my experiences with running a company in the UK it's almost like the Germans don't want you to run a company at all.

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Actually it's a filter, keeping those away from doing business who aren't able to handle little annoyances. I often hear people complain about (German) bureaucrazy and funding difficulties and they say "I just want to do X". But the bitter truth is: If one isn't able to overcome those barriers, they'll probably won't handle their business at all if they can't manage the many little annoyances that don't have to do with X but will occur while doing business.

At first my answer was meant to be a joke, but the longer I think about it... :)

The good news are: Since you seem to be able to manage those barriers, you're fine and can care about doing X.

The market should decide if the person can or can not handle his business, not some artificial barriers. What do they achieve exactly? This filtering is pointless and prove nothing. It's like giving a crossword when hiring a factory worker - if you are unable to solve the crossword, you might be unable to handle minor annoyances in the factory.

C'mon, I somehow have to put a higher meaning into those barriers. I've to rationalize the pain, it's a coping mechanism. :)

It's because the UK is Entrepreneurial. No body bats an eyelid if a 16 year old starts a company in the UK. It's normal.

In Germany, your meant to have the correct education, certificates, and experience before your own company. There's tons of red tape.

Huh? What stops anybody from registering a company at the Handelsregister and start working? Who needs a certificate and a proof of experience?

Or do you mean society enforces it?

Depends on what kind of company GmbH costs about 25,000 EUR to setup. You don't get that money back.

1) You can run UG which starts at 1 EUR (+ 100-200 Euro for bureaucracy).

2) It is your money to spend. You never give it to anybody else. So "you don't get that money back" is completely incorrect.

The UG is a step in the right direction. Though they half assed it a little. You get a gmbh-lite but have to put up with the full administrative burden.

That and the name suffix: "<my company> UG (haftunsgbeschraenkt)". Internationally no one knows what a UG is. Doesn't really matter for a local bakery but if you're running an international software business it becomes at least a little important.

> 2) It is your money to spend.

Actually it's your company's money to spend. So "you don't get it back" is partially correct ;)

Both. In certain trades, you can only start on your own if you get to a to certain level of certification.

But in most trades you can just start.

> Huh? What stops anybody from registering a company at the Handelsregister and start working?

Maybe not really applicable for us tech nerds but the "Meisterzwang" is a real obstacle for many people. But aside from that arcane institution there's not really anything forbidding you to start a company.

The problem I have with Germany is the time and bureaucratic burden it takes to get a Gmbh up and running. You're looking at a procedure that takes multiple months and visits at a notary office for the paperwork.

Compare that to the UK where all you have to do is log into a website and fill out a form to have your Ltd up and running.

Meisterzwang is pure quality assurance. And if you think how well known Germany is for quality products it makes total sense. And I would argue if there was a Meisterzwang for people concerned with egovernment we wouldn't have this discussion. Besides the Meisterzwang was abolished for many professions in 2004. See Wikipedia.

Agree with UK. It's generally a good idea to start a limited company for even minor ventures as it insulates you from any direct liability from fuckups and legal problems.

I've had 4 limited companies over the years.

Why not start the company in the UK and just run it from Germany? It's all in the EU, right?

I'm fairly sure that under German rules such a company (single director, Germany based) would be treated as German. Thus all taxes would need to be paid in Germany. You'd have double accounting, and have to file (manually) null accounts in the UK to satisfy Companies House, and file actual accounts in Germany. Royal pain in the ass.

Well, when I'm living in Germany I still have to register the branch of the Ltd here. And I still have to register with the Handelsregister, put up with the IHK and the stupendous tax system.

A Ltd. doesn't really have any advantage in that scenario besides fast incorporation times.

It's quite funny because the German steryotype in UK is of effeciency and things working. Just shows how steryotypes can be wrong/

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