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Comment by enneff | Hacker News Reader

I hope Uber can succeed in taking a stand on this. Tips are terrible for both consumers and workers; the only beneficiaries are the employers, who get away with underpaying their employees. And most of the world agrees. Why is North America so slow to realise this?

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That article is somewhat confusing. The issue isn't that Uber doesn't allow tips, it's that when a person does decide to tip , Uber takes 50% of it.

Here is a much better writeup: http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/28/4668504/uber-lawsuit-san-f...

I've used the app several times and I've never been prompted to enter a tip. Maybe it's a new feature?

Edit: After reading a few more sources I think the issue is that every fare has a built in 20% tip, but Uber takes half of it. Another source: http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-drivers-open-lawsuit-ove...

I took an Uber black car to the airport a couple days ago and there was not any UI for tipping. I looked to see if I could add in a tip; it's a flat fee for the ride. How can they take 50% of something that doesn't exist?

>20% of the metered fare will be automatically added and paid to the driver as a gratuity.

http://support.uber.com/entries/22338858-Tipping-Drivers

That's talking about calling taxis (i.e. yellow cabs). kevingadd said he took a black car, not a taxi.

"20% built-in tip but Uber takes half of it" sounds very much like "10% built-in tip", and even more like "Uber pays ~9% of the sum for each ride directly to the driver".

This whole thing sounds crazy and confusing.

BTW, I do tip cab drivers, in direct proportion to their performance: taking fast routes, driving smoothly, etc. Usually I just pay the tip in cash.

Um ... but Uber isn't "taking a stand on this". If the lawsuit is correct, Uber is just conning the customers into thinking the drivers get tips then stealing them. Just because you think tips are a bad payment mechanism, it doesn't follow that what Uber is doing is right.

(never used Uber so no judgment on if the lawsuit is correct or not)

The two times I used Uber, there was a single flat fee paid with no mention of a tip. The driver and I never discussed payment; it was all handled via the interwebs. Given that one of the perks of Uber is the "no fumbling with the credit card at the end of the ride", it would be rather divergent from the whole experience to be tipping separately.

I wouldn't have much of an issue tipping if it were via the same payment mechanism, though. Feels weird not to after years of taking cabs.

You misread the article.

It's Uber's black car drivers that are annoyed because they don't get tips, while Uber's Taxi drivers get a built-in 20% tip. The black cars are Uber's flagship product, run the way they want it run (fair pay without tips). The Taxi system includes a tip because no taxi driver would accept a fare that didn't include a tip. But—the taxi drivers still earn less than the black car drivers.

Agreed. I travelled overseas this summer, and what I miss most was the tip-free culture. It was so refreshing to know exactly what something would cost you. When I go into a cab or a restaurant in America, the bill at the end always seems to be a mystery. It's a very anti-consumer condition.

I just spent two months living near Chicago, and I have to agree. The fact that taxes (city + state + county) and tips aren't included in prices means that the amount you really spend isn't at all obvious until it comes time to pay. It was quite maddening.

Tipping is virtually unheard of in Israel (except a standard 10% in restaurants), and all prices are required to include tax. So if the taxi meter says that you need to pay 15 shekels, you can be sure that this is the price.

> Why is North America so slow to realise this?

It's part of the culture. And culture has always been an extremely inert thing. Decades are often needed to correct major problems that are anchored in it.

Probably the most effective way to get rid of the tipping culture would be for a majority of business owners to visibly declare:

"No tipping allowed. We pay fair salaries."

Does a business owner have a clear economic incentive to do this? No. At most an ethic one. And maybe there's a tiny bit of PR value in it.

Being spanish I don't find necessary to forbid the tips. Here if you are halpy with the service you let a couple euros, if it's a large bill something more, but it's not mandatory and the waiters are not going to look bad at you for not doing it. Every time I go to the states I find anoying that the waiter or the taci driver are counting every cent I let them, and that there is the possibelity to have a dispute over that. I'll rather have the quantity declared on the total of the bill and avoid that tense situation. I don't get how you can separate the food from the service, it seems like if the restaurant service were provided by random guys that just happen to be there that day, and not by proper employees. I know it's not like that but I can't avoid getting that sensation when I have to pay.

At least one restaurateur who tried a no-tip policy found tips actively harmful:

http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-...

Very interesting piece, thank you. I didn´t know how much the american laws are set about tipping. It´s not like that in Spain as far as I know. I don´t know about the dynamics but I´ll expect that they are playing a similar role between employees.

> It's part of the culture.

It's the same culture that feels individual charity is the best way to deal with poverty.

(And also there's this wonderful subset of this culture that feels that it's clever and thoughtful and generous to leave a Bible verse instead of a tip.)

Really?!? Is this a widespread phenomenon? That seems bizarre and unfair to me.

America is the land of freedom, not fairness. :P

...I snark, but it's true. =/

Tips give the server a motivation to get customers served and out the door faster: The chance to work more customers and thus acquire more tips.

This is obviously good for the employer but may also be good for the consumer, if they are in a hurry.

This is an empirical claim: namely that tipping results in better service.

The evidence I have seen does not favor this hypothesis: http://freakonomics.com/2013/06/03/should-tipping-be-banned-...

I don't see anything in that link or the transcript that actually addresses this point.

(Note that I limited my claim to "faster service", not overall "better service" or "perception of better service".)

This seems like a good time to point out that every study of tipping I've come across fails to find this sort of incentive effect.

Unless you want to call it "bribery", under which circumstances it can have some potent effects.

The difference is that bribery usually involves an upfront payment. Maybe people should start tipping before their meal.

The only difference I've noticed between service in North America and that in Australia is that I get iced water and the bill at the end really fast in North America. Everything else is more or less the same.

> the only beneficiaries are the employers

Customers who don't tip also benefit.

Is that really the case? Would Denny's really be paying servers $20 an hour if not for tips?

Yes, because otherwise no-one would work there.

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