India is bad for entrepreneurs.
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He was asking the wrong kind of questions. I figured out the right question when I was made told "the officer is busy at the moment", and asked to wait in an empty room. After sitting idly for about half an hour, I realized that the right question was "is there a fee that I could pay to make things go faster?" My task was accomplished in the next five minutes.
Of course, I'm Indian, and this was not at a visa office. I don't mean this as advice to "Alex", but the rusty machine runs on greased palms.
1. Have cash ready 2. Know someone in the bureaucracy and 1.
I am yet to figure out a third way.
And that doesn't concern only India, it's the same thing in all countries with low-mid level corruption. I know they take a risk, but they'd make more money that way AND benefit their country/economy, too.
How is that friendly to entrepreneurs when you keep getting bullshit cease and desist letter from shell companies?
Stop this cliched bullshit dude.
This shows what a cliched mindset you have.
Again you have a cliched mentality.
Why? Because it's a cliched mindset.
Get stuck much? You try to argue this point in every comment on this thread.
Shitty governance may be a cliche, but its a dealkiller in many ways. Its still prevalent in certain areas. Part of it is legal. Part of it is structural. There are some cultural dynamics as to why some things are as they are. Its more beneficial to understand the real problems, to think through them, and to know what you are up against. Than to deny they are figments of the imagination.
Ok sarcasm apart, I didn't think getting a work Visa to India would be so difficult but yes the bureaucracy is strangling. I had to visit the Passport office 3 times to renew my passport. It's like your whole future depends on the whims and fancies of a single government official.
And there is no coordination between different government departments. For instance India has come with this new SSN like Unique Identification Number (UID) thing called Aadhaar (Support in Hindi). Government says it is a valid proof of identity, it says so on the Passport web site as well as a valid documents accepted for proof of address but as my colleague recently experienced, the passport officers flatly refuse to accept Aadhaar card as proof of address! If you want your passport, produce the document that I ask for, I don't care what the web site says!
You can see a list of questions that are answered about operating a start-up in India here: http://woodegg.com/in
If you are not familiar with who Derek Sivers is, you can learn more about him at his website: http://sivers.org/ Most notably, he started CD Baby which he sold for $22M.
So here's my proposed solution: I would say to an Indian accountant, "Please set up an Indian company which you own and are the director. The company would (a) rent an office of my choosing; (b) hire employees of my choosing; (c) pay the director's fees; (d) issue a contract to help me get a 5-year business visa. The company would make a profit of exactly zero because its sales to my UK company would exactly cover its costs."
Is this a reasonable approach?
Is it just a cost benefit - cheaper developers?
Because there is some truth in "you get what you pay for". The ratio of good to bad programmers in India is the same as anywhere else[1]. But the pool is quite a bit larger than anywhere else, and there is a massive push of people into IT and IS because of the disproportionate pay. This combines to make very, very difficult to find significant talent[2]. It's comparable to the sudden influx of people into comp sci tracks in the US in the late 90s, but with a population base that's triple the size.
If you're looking for people to follow an exact, detailed, spec that you or other senior developer has written -- without exercising any independent though[3]; or if you have already located skilled individuals then it's worth going ahead.
Otherwise, make sure it's the right move for your business. The cost can easily run deeper than expenses. The talent is there, but you're going to have a hell of a time finding it if you don't have an connections.
[1], [2]: experience in hiring while working for a large US company that employed multiple large indian hiring mills, most notably TCS and InfoSys. [3] the vast majority of the remote hires out of India that I've worked with both at the company above, and subsequent employment.
You are right that you generally get what you pay for, and I've heard numerous horror stories from foreigners who have tried to hire Indian workers. I have no IT-related connections and would be looking to hire programmers who show initiative and are capable of independent thought. That might sound impossible but I think it's worth a shot - I guess I'm trying to be the Oakland A's of software development [1]. If I couldn't find an excellent programmer in a year I would give up and go home, but even in that case I don't think I'd regret the experience.
Spend cash. Make friends. Then, carry on with your business.
Both of these systems are horrible, and need exact documentation regarding number of applications processed, along with specific targets. They also need to be staffed with people eager to do their job and welcome people in unless there are specific, real concerns, not actively try to keep them out by any means possible, including infinitely long "processing" delays.
[edit: not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted here, but downvoters, please do try and leave a comment if possible. thanks!]
(Note: I freely admit that is a case that is very different from the States -- just saying that it is not a cut and dried form of corruption, as some seem to insist. And for that matter, the US has a lot of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.)
For what it's worth -- I did not mean to imply that the reasons for why both systems are screwed up are the same, and agree wholly with the statement that it "is VERY different from India". I just meant to highlight the fact that they both are screwed up, and the end result of a feeling of extreme frustration and helplessness for legal immigrants is the same.
Also, trying to suggest that corruption is an issue exclusive to India is pretty ridiculous as well. The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying and related practices.
The resource issue is fundamentally different. The US problem is that there are not enough people to process the enormous number of applications the country receives. The India problem is that the workers aren't paid well enough, resulting in a culture of bribery. Unlike in India, bribery of US visa officials is pretty rare.
> Also, why is it "people trying to game it" when it's the States, and "corruption" when it is in India?
By "people trying to game it", I meant prospective immigrants trying everything they can think of to manipulate the system. For some reason you seem to think that bribery is common in the US immigration system.
> The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.
This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
I don't exactly see the validity of this argument. There are a lot of people without jobs in the USA right now. Last I checked the unemployment rate was pretty high. So if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that the Government in the States does not have enough money, or for some reason, is not willing to pay people to process these applications.
Neither does the Indian Government. It's pretty cash-strapped as well. You are right that this does lead to bribery in the Indian scenario, and just plain slowness of processing in the US one. The end result for legal immigrants, as I have already said, is pretty similar.
> For some reason you seem to think that bribery is common in the US immigration system.
Not exactly. Look below for why I do think this is true, indirectly.
>The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.
In the US, "political lobbying" involving donations of millions of dollars routed through channels too diffuse for the common person to understand can result in laws being changed, leading to "legal" routes to whatever you want. In India, you pay a Government official a wad of notes, and your job is done. I fail to see how one system is inherently better than the other.
I never faced the shenanigans this guy did, but wow the red tape was mind-boggling.
Just to get admission to the university, I had to get approved by the police commissioner of Hyderabad(then a city of 5 million), which involved an actual meeting with the guy.
This despite being in the country on an Indian Government scholarship.
So, a whole nation is bad because a dozen officers were lazy? I really love the prostitute-ish ways Techcrunch goes sometimes to get pageviews. Well, it's their style anyway (Apple vs Samsung articles, anyone?)
Let's forget Techcrunch now.
First, I would like to point out certain things about the Indian eco-system for Entrepreneurs.
If you plan to run a max-profit, high efficiency startup, India it is. Period.
I say 'high efficiency' because you can optimize a lot of things for maximum profit.
Programmers are dead cheap. By programmers, I mean real programmers. You can hire decent programmers for $150-$200 a month. And that's a pretty standard amount in the IT scenario in India. The last time I checked people were paying $1000-$2000 for an average marketer who cold calls and emails random people in Western countries.
Of course, the next thing you'd argue is about the 'quality' of the programmers. See, these are real people. I know you get to meet a lot of shitty Indians everywhere. They're all over freelancing market places, take your money and do a shitty job. Agreed. But these people are not the 100% of the IT work force in India. They're probably like 30-40% which is large, but they are very much employable. All you need to do is just teach them the right way to do things and they'll grasp. And they improve. Just like everybody else. They're also people like us, right?
Next, I say 'maximum profit' because there's a lot of things that will save you money in India.
Need some office space? Here you go, starting from $60 a month. And these are in posh locations we're talking about (Contrary to popular belief, India has a lot of posh locations which were not shown in Slumdog Millionaire. Again, sensationalism. Oh this bastardized media!)
So, you can get a decent lawyer for $100-200. These guys take care of all your company incorporation, etc. Need an auditor to file taxes? That's just $100 a year.
Let's do the math for an American incorporation?
$200-$600 for Incorporating an LLC $50-$100/yr for Registered agent. Attorney fees - $1000-$15000 (decent attorney)
Travel is dead cheap in India. For $10 you can travel between two states comfortably on a Volvo A/C bus. Traveling within the city? That's just $2 cents. Or $1 cent. Actually even less. Depends on your mode.
Safety. I know you've been reading a lot of rape and stuff in the news channel. So, everybody gets to read only the bad parts (Media, again). However, there are a lot of posh, decent areas where there are cops circling around almost 24/7 till night. These places cost slightly extra, but they are totally worth it.
Also, it is very important that you realize that India has rape incidents mean the whole nation is spread out with rapists. Rape cases are most often encountered in the northern region. It's safe to say that Southern India is pretty safe (much much safe) compared to North India, which is almost full of sex-starved assholes (vague generalizaion)
This is not to say that South India has no rape at all. Just like any other country, abuse exists, but it's pretty controlled in the South. The last time a child molester was caught, he was shot dead in an encounter. (encounters of nasty criminals are pretty common here). Just avoid going out in the nights to lonely places and you should be pretty safe. Avoid public transportation if you can, or opt for deluxe buses/trains. India is as safe as any other country if you take some general precautions.
Now back to our start up. If you started up in the United states/United Kingdom, you'd be blowing out money like water. But if you start up in India and seek funding from abroad, most likely people will avoid you because you are an India, and the complications involved. My advice - Setup a C-Corp/LLC/whatever in the States/UK or which ever country you need funding from and then run it from India through an Indian Pvt limited as its partner.
Why? Because in India, nobody wants to sue you for rounded corners. Nobody sues startups in India. And even if they do (0.01% probability), the lawyers are pretty cheap. And even if you lose in court, you will most likely have loopholes to escape. And even if you lose the case, you'd be paying very few for damages ($500-$10000) much much lower than compared to what you'd be paying in America/UK.
But, the Indian startup scenario is also full of assholes. The founders are generally good, but most lack decent vision. And the accelerators. Oh god, these guys want to be the face of the start up eco-system and will be all over the place. They will want huge percentages in your company to introduce you to some founder you can actually meet over coffee yourself. And seeking funding? Good luck figuring out the terms. Shady at best.
But, with all that said, India is the best place for efficient bootstrapping startups. Period. FYI Zoho is from (South) India.
The best example I can show you that this is valid advice is to set myself up in India and become really successful, which I will and let my lovely HN community know soon.
Ty
Example? Recent college grads who already code.
This shows you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. A decent programmer will cost you close to $1000/month; a good one with experience will cost you upwards of $2000 per month.
As always, you get what you pay for.
Talk about all those dudes working in their dream MNC's like Wipro, etc?
Dude, everyone starts somewhere - The amount doesn't determine quality. If we go by that logic, you live in India and you're probably a shitty dude because you're not making anywhere as much as your American counter parts. Get over this mentality dude. Price != quality always.
Electricity went out? Sorry, sir, but all our technicians are busy and we won't be able to come fix the lines for another two or three days. Need a faster internet connection? Sorry sir, we're not handling those requests right now. Need to move into a larger building? All of a sudden the building inspectors are looking very closely at the interior plans of the new office.
Faster internet connection? Again you have a cliched mentality. You can get an 8Mbps connection with 5min so far for this entire month for $20.
Wake up buddy, this idea that an entire nation is full of shit just because you read articles about a particular place in the news doesn't make sense.
By that logic, everyone in the United States should be eating only burgers, be ridiculously obese and die of heart attack before 30.
(All numbers for Pune, about 1-2 years ago.)
I did a startup in India, mainly for the cheap labor. I'd happily expand and set up shop in India again, depending on the circumstances. But lets be realistic, rather than pushing hype.
If you think hiring programmers at cheap price is maximizing profit , its exploitation my friend , it's called making profit on misery of unemployment situation in the country.
There are un-employed employable people in the $200 range. You'll never understand the scenario in India, because you're not from India. But, you're right, I have a very crude mindset about exploiting these people. I realize my mistake. Sorry.
I'm giving specific numbers here mainly because there may be Indians who want to return home and start here.
Banglore is expensive because of the sheer number of IT companies there.
Come to chennai:
I can get you:
a posh OFFICE SPACE (Not a fucking apartment) for $60 in a posh area.
a sole proprietorship for less than $100
a decent grad for $200 - but not from the top Universities, though. Why? Because it's a cliched mindset that the best people come from the best universities. Have you watched Ratatouille?
"Not anyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere."
Please, I urge you to refresh this kind of attitude (Heavier pay = better quality employee, Better University = better grad)
I am aware that good people come from all universities. For me top university is a useful filter. When hiring, especially as a small company, I need some way to filter down to a smaller candidate pool to interview. So my thinking is: better university = higher probability of finding better grad.
Please provide citations or stop pulling statistics out of your own biased opinions. As an Indian, nothing makes me more infuriated than to see this "Oh North India bad! South India good" thing. And I really don't see how this is even remotely related to the discussion and why you had to bring this in.